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Thoughts on Arena Skirmish in Classic?

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FTHforever
(@fthforever)
Estimable Member

No one said it was... Classic isnt skill based. Its a very social game.

You are right that it's a very social game, that's one of the main reason why so many people are hooked. Everything in WoW is way easier with a good group / core, almost like the game should be played that way Wink

I can't really agree on that it's not a skill based game. I guess you come from a esport POV, and compared to CS, Mobas or RTS it's mechanically definitely easier. That said, you still need skill in WoW, but I say a skilled WoW player is someone who knows alot about the game, can play his class fast and makes good calls under pressure.
Most of this skillset come only through experience, that's why most decent guild's say they are experienced, not high skilled, but in the end it's skill in WoW isn't it? Cool

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Posted : 29/11/2019 4:18 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

I can't really agree on that it's not a skill based game. I guess you come from a esport POV, and compared to CS, Mobas or RTS it's mechanically definitely easier. That said, you still need skill in WoW, but I say a skilled WoW player is someone who knows alot about the game, can play his class fast and makes good calls under pressure.
Most of this skillset come only through experience, that's why most decent guild's say they are experienced, not high skilled, but in the end it's skill in WoW isn't it? Cool
Yea, I guess this is really dependent on your perspective. When I consider how much skill a game takes I compare the potential a player has to the requirements to succeed. So what I mean by that is, how much potential does a specific class have compared to the requirement to defeat content. The reality of Classic is that you have a MASSIVE cushion for error. You can play a class at about 30-50% of its potential and still down the majority of content. There is room for players to gain mastery and perform at an incredible level and Classic allows some of the best players to separate themselves from the pack, but the game doesnt demand this... The game has a VERY low requirement for defeating PvE content and virtually no skill component to the rank grind. Your success in Classic does not rely on skillful play. Just my opinion.

Classic can be punishing and will smother you with adversity, but networking is far more important than skillful play. You face challenge in Classic in a variety of ways. The primary challenge in Classic is the shear time investment it takes to accomplish anything. Classic is a marathon. But the rank 14's on your server wont be the best PvPers... In fact they will likely lose to a lot of players in duels etc. They just happen to have the time to invest into the grind, there is no skill component or rating requirement. The raiders you see in Naxx gear are going to be guys who were loyal and reliable to a guild for an extended period of time. Those guys sporting Naxx gear arent necessarily mechanically good at the game, they just committed to a raid schedule for an extended period of time. The challenge of raid leading is probably the largest hurdle in Classic, but not because you need to be able to problem solve or overcome ingame obstacles, no. Raid leading is challenging because keeping a 40 man raid roster full and creating a positive play experience within that roster is incredibly hard! Are the mechanics difficult? Hell no. But try getting 40 people to line up for a screenshot after a kill, its hard as shit. Really, it is. It typically takes 5 mins. My point is, the more people you're trying to lead, the harder it becomes. Regardless of how trivial the mechanics are, coordinating 40 people to succeed IS the challenge to raiding.

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Posted : 29/11/2019 3:11 pm
almarsguides
(@almarsguides)
Eminent Member

Goodluck climbing to 14 on your own. As someone who has done the grind to 13 myself, premades are a large part of that grind and with BG's right around the corner, most brackets will require premade farming for the forseeable future to remain competitive. You wont see many players getting to 13-14 as a solo.

Like I said in my previous post, i know you have to run with premades to get rank 14. You can still be antisocial while doing that though and it doesn't require much socializing at all to do organized pvp in comparison to organized pve. 2 months and you're done forever in pvp and you don't even have to join a guild or deal with any sort of guild politics. Pvp you just join a good group and do BGs all day every day.

Also, I think you're equating the rank 14 grind not taking skill with the game not taking skill to play. I agree that the rank 14 grind takes literally next to no skill at all - in fact you could be the best player in the world and you wouldn't beat someone who has two people playing the same account to Honor grind 24/7. But to say the game takes no skill based on that makes no sense to me.

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Posted : 29/11/2019 8:41 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

I agree that the rank 14 grind takes literally next to no skill at all - in fact you could be the best player in the world and you wouldn't beat someone who has two people playing the same account to Honor grind 24/7. But to say the game takes no skill based on that makes no sense to me.

Well thats my point. The game requires no skill. There are no rewards that are gatekept behind a skill component. The game requires very little skill. It requires time. You can accomplish almost anything within Classic if you invest time and time alone in a group setting.

As to your point about being antisocial and getting the best gear in 2 months to avoid guild drama and bla bla bla... Youre the minority if youre pushing rank 14 AND multiboxing... First of all, youre probably not going to be getting rank 14 within 2 months (if you do, please link some screenshots, I'd be super interested in seeing your two month journey). You'd have to stay ontop of the bracket for the entire duration, and that wont be easy. It certainly isnt realistic for 99% of the population. So while your argument isn't inherently wrong, you cant label the game as an anti-social experience because you've found one path to success through solo-farming honor while multiboxing and gaining rank 14 in 2 months... This just isnt realistic for the majority and is not reflective of what the game is.

Classic is a social game. There is very little skill required to conquer any aspect of the game.

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Posted : 30/11/2019 12:54 am
FTHforever
(@fthforever)
Estimable Member

The reality of Classic is that you have a MASSIVE cushion for error. You can play a class at about 30-50% of its potential and still down the majority of content.

Right, I am pretty confident that sums up the question if WoW needs skill.

If you look at it from the other side: the only punishment you get for playing bad or failing is that you lose time.

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Posted : 30/11/2019 1:29 am
almarsguides
(@almarsguides)
Eminent Member

I agree that the rank 14 grind takes literally next to no skill at all - in fact you could be the best player in the world and you wouldn't beat someone who has two people playing the same account to Honor grind 24/7. But to say the game takes no skill based on that makes no sense to me.

Well thats my point. The game requires no skill. There are no rewards that are gatekept behind a skill component. The game requires very little skill. It requires time. You can accomplish almost anything within Classic if you invest time and time alone in a group setting.

As to your point about being antisocial and getting the best gear in 2 months to avoid guild drama and bla bla bla... Youre the minority if youre pushing rank 14 AND multiboxing... First of all, youre probably not going to be getting rank 14 within 2 months (if you do, please link some screenshots, I'd be super interested in seeing your two month journey). You'd have to stay ontop of the bracket for the entire duration, and that wont be easy. It certainly isnt realistic for 99% of the population. So while your argument isn't inherently wrong, you cant label the game as an anti-social experience because you've found one path to success through solo-farming honor while multiboxing and gaining rank 14 in 2 months... This just isnt realistic for the majority and is not reflective of what the game is.

Classic is a social game. There is very little skill required to conquer any aspect of the game.

Never said i was going to grind rank 14 as a multiboxer, just that ive grinded rank 14 before.

And i see why you say the game takes no skill, you base it on the reward you get. I dont use this same logic, when i say the game takes skill what i mean is someone really really good and knowledgeable can beat multiple players who are in amazing gear that don’t know their class.

Games like call of duty have a low skill cap because you can only get so good at it, then you’re basically as good as everyone else. Classic WoW isn’t like that, the more you know, practice and play the better you get and you can be that dude who takes out 3 people in full BWL gear while you only got blues

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Posted : 30/11/2019 5:13 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

And i see why you say the game takes no skill, you base it on the reward you get.

Yes. The game incentivizes certain behaviors/activites (Raiding/BG's) and the players typically try to accomplish certain milestones to "win". For a PvP player thats rank 14, and for a raider thats Naxx. Reaching those benchmarks does not require skill. People who are playing the game will generally spend their time working towards those goals because those are the goals that are rewarded and reaching those goals takes no skill. Therefore, from my perspective, the game takes no skill.
I dont use this same logic, when i say the game takes skill what i mean is someone really really good and knowledgeable can beat multiple players who are in amazing gear that don’t know their class.

I disagree with this. At a certain threshold of gear, the lower skilled player will still win. Classic is incredibly based on gear... Take a shadow priest in BWL+ gear and place him against a guy in blues. As soon as the priest rolls his dots, the fight has ended. Take a late game SL warlock who is AWFUL, and allow him to roll his dots and press drain life. The fight has ended before it even begun.
Games like call of duty have a low skill cap because you can only get so good at it, then you’re basically as good as everyone else.

Quite the opposite. First person shooters are entirely reliant on skill. You typically wont be able to acquire much gear that others dont have access to if you are playing in a ranked ladder. In most circumstances everyone will have access to the same gear and winning or losing is dependent entirely on a players proficiency at the game. The most pure version of this would be a game like counterstrike.
Classic WoW isn’t like that, the more you know, practice and play the better you get and you can be that dude who takes out 3 people in full BWL gear while you only got blues

I challenge you to fight 3 BWL players, who are average, while you are wearing blue gear and win. The game just doesnt work that way... I'm not saying it cant happen, but it certainly doesnt happen consistently... Generally speaking, the player with worse gear (if the gear difference is significant) loses. Warriors get to the point that they can global people. Warlocks get to the point that 2-3 of their dots will end the fight in 15 seconds - late game destro locks are insane. Mages can quite literally pom pyro people at a certain gear threshold. The game relies on gear and to say otherwise is either disingenuous or a bit naive. Maybe youre just inexperienced, but it feels like youre being intellectually dishonest to push a specific narrative.

I love Classic. But I love it for the reasons its great... It doesnt need to be EVERYTHING. Its a solid social MMO. Thats it. Its not a super hardcore challenging skill-based mmo... It just isnt. Saying that Classic is skill-based, doesnt change the fact that it is not.

We've fallen pretty far from OP's topic but im CRAVING conversation so im enjoying this =) and RedridgeGnoll's posts are only designed to stimulate conversation anyhow, so I'm sure hes okay with it.

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Posted : 30/11/2019 3:38 pm
Vengecide
(@vengecide)
New Member

As some of you might know you could do Arena in Vanilla WoW. It was only Skirmishes since the rating system wasn't implemented until TBC. How do you feel about Arena in Classic? Obviously, it wouldn't work like it did in TBC, but would having Skirmishes be ok?

Instead of coming out with TBC they should just do stuff with classic like they said and keep it fresh an vanilla like. Oldschool Runescape is doing a good job with their version of an old game. They got a few things that aren't 07 but most of the game is based off of 07 and that's why such an old game is thriving. Jagex does not put any updates in unless atleast 75% of the player base votes on it. I would love to see a classic arena. Who cares about class imbalance. Classes are never balanced 100% anyway. I personally wouldn't mind if TBC became a thing however I think anything beyond TBC would be pushing it.

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Posted : 01/12/2019 8:37 am
Caperfin
(@caperfin)
Reputable Member

Jagex does not put any updates in unless atleast 75% of the player base votes on it.

Im not familiar with RS are there any content patches or nerfs/buffs and such?
I am afraid that some large WoW personality will persuade their community/following to vote a certain way.

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Posted : 02/12/2019 4:11 am
Telvaine
(@telvaine)
Reputable Member

I would be cool with them adding it in as Classic+ content like 6 months to a year after phase 6. Arena is probably my favorite part of WoW, but I also don't really think it belongs in vanilla.

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Posted : 02/12/2019 6:10 am
almarsguides
(@almarsguides)
Eminent Member

I disagree with this. At a certain threshold of gear, the lower skilled player will still win. Classic is incredibly based on gear... Take a shadow priest in BWL+ gear and place him against a guy in blues. As soon as the priest rolls his dots, the fight has ended. Take a late game SL warlock who is AWFUL, and allow him to roll his dots and press drain life. The fight has ended before it even begun.

At a certain threshold of gear, yes. If the player is in full greens or full blues versus someone in full naxx gear, sure. That's why I used BWL gear in my example. In this game, skill factors in more than gear.
Quite the opposite. First person shooters are entirely reliant on skill. You typically wont be able to acquire much gear that others dont have access to if you are playing in a ranked ladder. In most circumstances everyone will have access to the same gear and winning or losing is dependent entirely on a players proficiency at the game. The most pure version of this would be a game like counterstrike.

You should do some research about first person shooters before posting your opinions. There is plenty of research done on them to suggest they have an artificial skill cap limiting how good you can get at the game. This makes it more fun for everyone since it's basically luck whether or not you win, thus it means even a "bad" player can win sometimes and enjoy the game and thus will play more often. Activision/Blizzard actually made a matchmaking system that they pattened which uses a similar algorithim, also googleable.
I challenge you to fight 3 BWL players, who are average, while you are wearing blue gear and win. The game just doesnt work that way... I'm not saying it cant happen, but it certainly doesnt happen consistently... Generally speaking, the player with worse gear (if the gear difference is significant) loses. Warriors get to the point that they can global people. Warlocks get to the point that 2-3 of their dots will end the fight in 15 seconds - late game destro locks are insane. Mages can quite literally pom pyro people at a certain gear threshold. The game relies on gear and to say otherwise is either disingenuous or a bit naive. Maybe youre just inexperienced, but it feels like youre being intellectually dishonest to push a specific narrative.

It sounds like you're trying to theory craft this, which doesn't work in PvP well. As someone who has, many times, defeated people in BWL gear while in full blues on my Hunter - it's definitely possible. Not only possible, but extremely easy when you know the game and the people you're fighting don't. I could also say like, "Well if those 3 people were warlocks all it would take is them to DoT you up and you die" - true. If those 3 players are Priest, Warrior and Hunter though, it's definitely possible to defeat all three of them before they defeat you.

And before calling me intellectually dishonest, I think you should look in a mirror. I've met many people like you in my life who assume someone else is wrong because you've thought of one minor way in which their theory could be proven wrong.... Sigh, it's the laziest way of thinking in the world. Everyone is wrong about everything and it's not hard to point out how (It's also not at all hard to find one exception that "proves" (notice the sarcastic air quotes) what someone is saying wrong). What's actually difficult is to think about how that person is correct and how they reached their conclusion. That takes effort and time and patience and requires you to step outside the realm of which you're comfortable. I understand your point of view and why you think the game takes no skill, but you don't seem to understand mine.

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Posted : 02/12/2019 2:02 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

almarsguides post a video of you taking 3 people in BWL gear while wearing blues please.

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Posted : 02/12/2019 2:55 pm
almarsguides
(@almarsguides)
Eminent Member

@almarsguides post a video of you taking 3 people in BWL gear while wearing blues please.

I see that you’re completely unwilling to accept you may be wrong, since you want evidence that is impossible to provide to prove yourself wrong. Bwl isnt out yet so you’re making an impossible standard to prove yourself wrong.

Just use google and watch one of the thousand pvp videos out. This of course assumes you actually want to learn and not just argue/assert your ideology. A hunter with Ancient Bone Bow (scholo) can almost drop a priest with an Aimed Shot, Multishot, Arcane Shot rotation in BWL gear. It isnt hard to imagine someone in blues taking out 3 people, you must be a mostly PvE player cause you saw this all the time running premades grinding rank 14

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Posted : 02/12/2019 4:03 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

I see that you’re completely unwilling to accept you may be wrong, since you want evidence that is impossible to provide to prove yourself wrong. Bwl isnt out yet so you’re making an impossible standard to prove yourself wrong.

Just use google and watch one of the thousand pvp videos out. This of course assumes you actually want to learn and not just argue/assert your ideology. A hunter with Ancient Bone Bow (scholo) can almost drop a priest with an Aimed Shot, Multishot, Arcane Shot rotation in BWL gear. It isnt hard to imagine someone in blues taking out 3 people, you must be a mostly PvE player cause you saw this all the time running premades grinding rank 14

No I just think you're WAY off base. So much so that I doubt we'll be able to establish common ground.

FPS games are reliant almost entirely on skill, to say otherwise is silly.

Classic is a super casual game that is primarily a social experience. PvP within the confines of Classic is heavily impacted by gear. This is just... Factual. I mean, I dont think many people on this forum, nor that play the game would disagree with me.

In your example with a hunter dropping a priest, youre assuming the priest doesnt have a bubble up AND that the hunter crits. This is heavily reliant on RNG and the hunter still needs to contend with his 2 friends in BWL gear. I actually do a lot of PvP and PvE but I'm not the sort of guy to go on a text based forum and brag about my PvP prowess, because the people who do are typically garbage. You for instance will make dramatic claims but we're expected to take your word for it... You talk about the rank grind as an alternative to raiding, but then say you arent planning on doing it... You just seem like youre all talk and your take on the state of Classic and its challenges are just... Very naive.

You'll notice a pattern with my posts on the site. So long as there is an opportunity to establish common ground and move the conversation forward, I will be heavily invested in the conversation. But when someone is clearly out of touch, I just dial back my responses.

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Posted : 02/12/2019 4:13 pm
almarsguides
(@almarsguides)
Eminent Member

FPS games are reliant almost entirely on skill, to say otherwise is silly.

hehe yea we won't find common ground if you think you're good at games cause you're good at call of duty or if you keep twisting my words around/making crazy assumptions. FPS games are reliant on skill but they have a skill cap, a very low one. Which means you can only get so good at them before everyone is as good as you are - even if they are a better player they're skill capped due to the game's design. There is plenty of information about this online:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/borh33/what_fps_has_the_lowest_skill_cap/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Blackops4/comments/8ifdmp/this_game_needs_a_higher_skill_ceiling_a_few_ways/

If you do a little bit of google research you'll find plenty of people discussing this very topic.
In your example with a hunter dropping a priest, youre assuming the priest doesnt have a bubble up AND that the hunter crits. This is heavily reliant on RNG and the hunter still needs to contend with his 2 friends in BWL gear. I'm actually do a lot of PvP and PvE but I'm not the sort of guy to go on a text based forum and brag about my PvP prowess, because the people who do are typically garbage. You for instance will make dramatic claims but we're expected to take your word for it... You talk about the rank grind as an alternative to raiding, but then say you arent planning on doing it... You just seem like youre all talk and your take on the state of Classic and its challenges are just... Very naive.

Of course I am making assumptions, I did say "a person in blues that is good at the game can take out 3 people in BWL that are not good at the game" so, yes, I am assuming the 3 people are not good at the game and and don't bubble, as my example stated. It seems that you finally understand my original argument, when people don't know how to play, their gear doesn't matter as much.

Also, you're the one who assumed I was going to do the rank 14 pvp grind when I never even remotely implied I would. You seem to be the sort of person that doesn't listen to someone when they talk and just jump to conclusions about what they mean or what they plan to do.

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Posted : 02/12/2019 4:26 pm
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