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Should holy paladins be spamming their execute hammer at -20%?

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FTHforever
(@fthforever)
Estimable Member

Like if it’s very high damage per mana/time I guess we should try to use it every 30 seconds, even if our assigned role is healing. What do you think

I think that's how these 1% wipes happen. Speaking from experience

Played hpala on pserver earlier this year and usually your assigned role is MT healing, so just stick to doing that.
PVE isn't against players who might be in awe if you go full facerush retard, so it doesn't work there.

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Posted : 28/11/2019 4:29 am
Krispyish
(@krispyish)
Eminent Member

My buddy plays a holy paladin, I run dungeons with him, he's our healer, and is OOM every other fight because he's standing in the mosh pit with the rest of the DPS spamming all his mana on offensive spells swinging a big 2handed sword doing DPS. Our raid team's mantra is ABP, Always Be Pullin. My buddy heals using the NBH method of Never Be Healin. It works really well when all 5 people in the group are in voice chat talking shit the entire time and not caring about wipes or clear times

"Was that a heal? I forgot what those felt like"
"Shut up bitch you'll get healed when you deserve it"
LoL

This gave me and my friends a good laugh. Its good knowing we aren't the only ones that treat each other like this. LoL

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Posted : 05/12/2019 4:55 am
Iban
 Iban
(@iban)
Eminent Member

Are you guys seriously having a discussion about whether you should use hammer of wrath in between healing? Cmon.

Yes of course we having a serious discussion. It's literally a one second cast, once every 30 seconds. And what if it is very high damage per that 1 second compared to all the DPS and their usual abilities? Obviously, worthwhile. Of course this thread is full of absolute idiots with no concept of relative tradeoffs so why bother

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Topic starter Posted : 07/12/2019 12:30 pm
Iban
 Iban
(@iban)
Eminent Member

I don't think it's very situational. you can only press it every 30 seconds. Plus most of the time there is SOME healing to do, but it's not clearcut how much. What I want to know is how it compares to other dps in terms of damage per mana spent/time casted

It is entirely situational. Do you need to heal? Then you should be healing.

Which is bullcrap from a non expert healer who isn't overhealing or cancel-casting, and whose raid suffers because of it. High end healers know that their is a huge grey area between "needing more heals" or not, because you can always overspam the tank, and can always be cancel-casting, in order to ensure that critical tank moments are kept to a minimum. This thread is full of weed smokers who went until they see a red bar before they start casting. Total scrubs. Not even worth listening to

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Topic starter Posted : 07/12/2019 12:32 pm
Telvaine
(@telvaine)
Reputable Member

How do you read "if you need to heal you should be healing" and conclude that you're being told not to heal until the team is in the red?

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Posted : 07/12/2019 4:20 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Which is bullcrap from a non expert healer who isn't overhealing or cancel-casting, and whose raid suffers because of it. High end healers know that their is a huge grey area between "needing more heals" or not, because you can always overspam the tank, and can always be cancel-casting, in order to ensure that critical tank moments are kept to a minimum. This thread is full of weed smokers who went until they see a red bar before they start casting. Total scrubs. Not even worth listening to

No. No.... No. You have a priority. That is healing. If that priority is being met, you continue down through your hierarchy of abilities. You need to use your discretion as a healer. Healing is whack-a-mole. Its dynamic, its always different, its simple and when you aren't busy you can do DPS. If you don't understand that... You're probably (definitely)... Bad.

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Posted : 07/12/2019 8:44 pm
Faendor
(@faendor)
Reputable Member

Are you guys seriously having a discussion about whether you should use hammer of wrath in between healing? Cmon.

Yes of course we having a serious discussion. It's literally a one second cast, once every 30 seconds. And what if it is very high damage per that 1 second compared to all the DPS and their usual abilities? Obviously, worthwhile. Of course this thread is full of absolute idiots with no concept of relative tradeoffs so why bother

Cringe

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Posted : 08/12/2019 12:52 am
Faendor
(@faendor)
Reputable Member

@Iban You are talking about it like it was rocket science decision.

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Posted : 08/12/2019 1:00 am
Iban
 Iban
(@iban)
Eminent Member

Which is bullcrap from a non expert healer who isn't overhealing or cancel-casting, and whose raid suffers because of it. High end healers know that their is a huge grey area between "needing more heals" or not, because you can always overspam the tank, and can always be cancel-casting, in order to ensure that critical tank moments are kept to a minimum. This thread is full of weed smokers who went until they see a red bar before they start casting. Total scrubs. Not even worth listening to

No. No.... No. You have a priority. That is healing. If that priority is being met, you continue down through your hierarchy of abilities. You need to use your discretion as a healer. Healing is whack-a-mole. Its dynamic, its always different, its simple and when you aren't busy you can do DPS. If you don't understand that... You're probably (definitely)... Bad.

Healing is not whack a mole at all, it is anticipatory. You know when a swing or spell is coming before it happens, you can see target's target target. Obviously not even worth responding to you because you a filthy scrub, incapable of understanding the higher level of the game

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Topic starter Posted : 14/12/2019 5:58 am
Iban
 Iban
(@iban)
Eminent Member

So many retards here think that healing is something you do AFTER damage is taken, rather than anticipating (cancel casting or overhealing), total scumbags and idiots

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Topic starter Posted : 14/12/2019 5:59 am
Telvaine
(@telvaine)
Reputable Member

Iban In case you forgot, the question you asked in this thread is "should I be casting hammer of wrath as a healer". The answer that everyone has given you is "only if you have nothing better to do". Trying to put down everyone responding to you by going on and on about how 733T you are, and how you've created your own meta that clearly only you are aware of and capable of doing, is pretty pointless. (which has nothing to do with conversation btw, if you need to cast anticipatory heals, guess what you should be doing instead of casting hammer of wrath?) The answer to your question which has been given to you by every person in the thread, is that as a healer, no matter how much dmg your execute does, it is negligible overall, and if you are dpsing instead of healing when you need to be healing, you are failing as a healer.

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Posted : 14/12/2019 8:34 am
Psojed
(@psojed)
Trusted Member

I see these forums are as friendly as ever, courtesy of several members...

Let's break it down:
Hammer of Wrath has 6 s cooldown, not 30 s. You probably confused HoW with Holy Shock, which is the last Holy talent, that one has 30 seconds cooldown.
Hammer of Wrath is pretty bad. For 425 mana you deal avg. 530 damage (+SP), your holy talents do NOTHING for it, because it is considered a melee (ranged?) attack. And there's nothing execute-y about it, except for the fact that you can't use it until target is below 20%... If you want to know how bad it is, just look at Shaman's Earth Shock. Same cooldown, ~same mana cost and dmg. But ES is instant cast, no "below 20%" bullshit. And unlike Paladins, Shammies can improve it: 6s cooldown to 5s, 450 mana cost to 405, avg. damage to 557, and they get better SP coefficient.
Hammer of Wrath was probably intended for retribution paladins, given its scaling with melee crit and melee hit, but even retribution paladins shouldn't use it in pve, EVER, as it resets swing timer for them and results in a DPS loss.

Finally, you are correct that advanced healing is about anticipation. Moreover, any unspent mana at the end of a fight is wasted mana. Mana that could be used to heal or deal damage. So, if you're at the end of a fight and your mana is half full, by all means spend it on HoW. But consider this: Any dps specced class can do more damage in that timeframe than a healer throwing a weak hammer. If your raid's healers are generally left with half-full mana bars, it would be more beneficial for the raid to include another DPS specced player.

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Posted : 08/01/2020 1:42 am
Gensei
(@gensei)
Reputable Member

I see these forums are as friendly as ever, courtesy of several members...

Agree. Sad when a genuine question gets gruffly answered when it doesn't need to be.

Also my answer to most any of these questions is that as long as it won't outright negatively impact your groupmates and makes the game more fun for you, then go for it. If you think it causes problems, then stop. You'll figure out when to use it or when to not, if at all. You don't need people's opinions on here giving you the authoritative way to play the game Iban

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Posted : 10/01/2020 10:57 am
Xcellers
(@xcellers)
Estimable Member

To me, this is more an attitude discussion, than an actual class mechanical discussion.

For me, based on just my understanding of class mechanics and of holy paladins in general, then sure, you can hammer away if you want to.

If the conditions are for it, e.g. you consistently kill bosses with surplus mana, you have no tank deaths, you have limited/no critical MT HP moments, you have no combat deaths, you have 100% up-time on your seal/judgement duties and you find that you cannot push your activity rating higher than 70%, then I see no problem in dumping mana into a DPS - in a limited/controlled setting.

Where the issue for me comes into play, is when I include my overall attitude towards my raid function into this discussion; I am there to heal, and i am there (together with tanks) to make sure that when things fuck up, then we can handle it.

If I am aiming for full mana depletion by mana dumping into DPS, then I would be chipping away at my emergency resources that I need ready if things go south, I know this is a risk despite MC being trivial content, and despite my guild being above average; I would assume that this is a reality for most of us, and if you are in a top-tier guild that doesnt make these kinds of mistakes, then I would straight up assume that they, as Psojed suggests, would dump a healer and bring extra DPS.

So definitely, you can spam hammers as much as your heart desires, as long as the conditions are in favour of it. If they aint, or if your raids suffer because of insufficient healing, mana or focus, then I would recommend skipping the hammers, and making sure that things goes smoother LoL

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Posted : 10/01/2020 3:05 pm
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