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Tauren hunters and their deadzone.

Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

So Taurens have larger hit boxes. Most estimates say this pushes their hitbox out approximately 2 yards. What does this mean for Tauren hunters? How will this affect their deadzone? This is something I've been wanting to test for some time. I've considered testing it on private but I think testing it within Classic would be more appropriate. I was curious about this a few years ago and recently saw a post on reddit that was filled with conjecture, but no one had a definitive answer.

Context:
Auto shoot 8-35 yards
Melee 5 yards

The deadzone of a hunter lays between the 5 yard mark and the 8 yard mark. This is referred to as the hunters deadzone because the hunter is unable to use ranged or melee attacks within this range.

The question. Does the increased hitbox size push a hunters range, both melee and ranged out an additional 2 yards making the Tauren hunter have the furthest range overall?

Does the melee range go to 7 yards (from 5 due to the increased hitbox), but not affect the hunters ranged abilities, effectively reducing the deadzone to a 1 yard deadzone?

Needless to say, Taurens hitbox increase is a strength and weakness. In most circumstance I am inclined to see it as a weakness for hunters who can be hit from a further range. I'm just curious how the deadzone interaction will play out in Classic.

edit: spelling

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Topic starter Posted : 28/05/2019 11:35 pm
Aegust
(@aegust)
Trusted Member

This is actually a good question. Has anyone ever tested this? If I had to guess I'd say that the range increase pushes the deadzone to be just 1 yard. Somebody should definitely test this out.

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Posted : 28/05/2019 11:54 pm
Nenski
(@nenski)
Trusted Member

From what I remember, the dead zone is adjusted accordingly, but your top range is not affected. This means all hunters have the same effective top range.

If that's truly the case, I would say Tauren is the worst hunter. This means your target can reach you quicker while inside your range. The change is only 2 meters, but that's still a noteworthy discrepancy.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 3:54 am
BadGrahmmer
(@badgrahmmer)
New Member

So their minimum range on bow is more like 11yrds, but their attack range for melee is like 8 or whatever so there is still a several yrd deadzone. This is an overall negative for most hunters, I would think. The exception would be BM PvP hunters would likely benefit from this, maybe even by a lot. When you consider the racial stun on top of the extended melee range I would think Tauren might be the best race for it. Its hard to argue against Orc stun resist and bonus pet damage, but Taurens would allow you to do a lot more of what BM need to do in pvp, which is help their pet stick to their opponent. With the increased range on wingclips and low CD 2 sec stuns popping off, I would think that you would probably outvalue that 5% pet damage increase substantially. As for the stun resist, its good to keep in mind that its still a coin flip type effect. As in it either helps or it doesn't. While that will save you or help you stick to people sometimes, it will often not, I think the consistency in the Tauren racials as well as "hidden" racial probably level the playing field a good bit when comparing the two races for this specific purpose.

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Posted : 31/05/2019 10:02 am
Latsiv
(@latsiv)
Trusted Member

H = hunter, o = melee range, M = max melee range, x = dead zone, C = max range, T = target
first is a normal non-tauren hunter, second is a cow hunter
HooooMxxxR------rest of your range-----CT
HHHooooMxxxR------rest of your range-----CT

The tauren is basically 2 yards bigger, so everything gets pushed 2 spaces out. However, this also means stuff can attack the tauren from 2 yards farther away. It all evens out, but the tauren hunter's deadzone is "larger" in the sense that it has more surface area, since it is a wider-radius circle.

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Posted : 31/05/2019 12:49 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

H = hunter, o = melee range, M = max melee range, x = dead zone, C = max range, T = target
first is a normal non-tauren hunter, second is a cow hunter
HooooMxxxR------rest of your range-----CT
HHHooooMxxxR------rest of your range-----CT

The tauren is basically 2 yards bigger, so everything gets pushed 2 spaces out. However, this also means stuff can attack the tauren from 2 yards farther away. It all evens out, but the tauren hunter's deadzone is "larger" in the sense that it has more surface area, since it is a wider-radius circle.

Hmmm... This is one of the two examples I eluded to in my original post. So you think that Hunters have the highest possible range ingame?

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Topic starter Posted : 31/05/2019 10:48 pm
Latsiv
(@latsiv)
Trusted Member

Hmmm... This is one of the two examples I eluded to in my original post. So you think that Hunters have the highest possible range ingame?

If two hunters with identical talents (read: same "on paper" max range) are shooting the same target, and one is tauren and the other not, the tauren will be standing 2 yards farther back. BUT, the target (assume it has exactly the same range as the hunters) would still be able to hit both of them.

This also applies if our two hunters needed to ranged attack at minimum range (as close as possible while still using ranged skills) - the tauren would be 2 yards farther back, but still at their minimum ranged distance.

The easiest way to think of it is that the "max range" is always going to be equal no matter what race you are - it's from the edge of your hitbox to the edge of your target's. A really simple way to look at it is that it's good for melee attacking and bad for ranged attacking. Assume your target starts the fight in the center of your hitbox (like your models are on top of each other) - tauren have to run 2 yards farther away to start ranged attacks. All other ranged scenarios are basically equal.

Edit: And after re-reading your original post, let me try to get at the crux of your question. Tauren do end up with, functionally, a longer range. This longer range is a byproduct of their larger hitbox and brings with it some interesting pros and cons, especially in regards to the dead zone. It doesn't give any sort of range advantage versus similarly-talented hunters in PvP. But if your entire goal is to be a max-range artillery piece, your bovine ballista will be standing a little farther in the rear than the other puny hunters.

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Posted : 31/05/2019 11:55 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Hmmm... This is one of the two examples I eluded to in my original post. So you think that Hunters have the highest possible range ingame?

If two hunters with identical talents (read: same "on paper" max range) are shooting the same target, and one is tauren and the other not, the tauren will be standing 2 yards farther back. BUT, the target (assume it has exactly the same range as the hunters) would still be able to hit both of them.

This also applies if our two hunters needed to ranged attack at minimum range (as close as possible while still using ranged skills) - the tauren would be 2 yards farther back, but still at their minimum ranged distance.

The easiest way to think of it is that the "max range" is always going to be equal no matter what race you are - it's from the edge of your hitbox to the edge of your target's. A really simple way to look at it is that it's good for melee attacking and bad for ranged attacking. Assume your target starts the fight in the center of your hitbox (like your models are on top of each other) - tauren have to run 2 yards farther away to start ranged attacks. All other ranged scenarios are basically equal.

Edit: And after re-reading your original post, let me try to get at the crux of your question. Tauren do end up with, functionally, a longer range. This longer range is a byproduct of their larger hitbox and brings with it some interesting pros and cons, especially in regards to the dead zone. It doesn't give any sort of range advantage versus similarly-talented hunters in PvP. But if your entire goal is to be a max-range artillery piece, your bovine ballista will be standing a little farther in the rear than the other puny hunters.

Okay. Yeah this is what I had figured too. Interesting...

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Topic starter Posted : 01/06/2019 12:42 am
Reimu
(@reimu)
Active Member

Pretty sure it just goes both ways.
You can hit people from further away, but people can also do the same to you, so it evens out.

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Posted : 01/06/2019 12:44 am
Lendryn
(@lendryn)
Estimable Member

Stfuppercut So have you decided on this? I get the impression it's all the same as far as abilities are concerned, but melee have more overhead to work with once they stand inside you. Once every 2 minutes you can bail yourself out with War Stomp but statistically Hardiness should generate more value if you get hit with stuns more than 4 times in those 2 minutes.

In more claustrophobic settings like the Warsong Gulch bases I'd guess Tauren would be at a disadvantage. Plus you always have the easy-to-click-on debuff, less pet damage, no blood fury to beef up your raptor and mongoose crits... I would have decided already if I didn't like the way Tauren look.

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Posted : 05/06/2019 1:53 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

@Stfuppercut So have you decided on this? I get the impression it's all the same as far as abilities are concerned, but melee have more overhead to work with once they stand inside you. Once every 2 minutes you can bail yourself out with War Stomp but statistically Hardiness should generate more value if you get hit with stuns more than 4 times in those 2 minutes.

In more claustrophobic settings like the Warsong Gulch bases I'd guess Tauren would be at a disadvantage. Plus you always have the easy-to-click-on debuff, less pet damage, no blood fury to beef up your raptor and mongoose crits... I would have decided already if I didn't like the way Tauren look.

In terms of value for PvP, hardiness is a no-brainer. As far as PvP is concerned the extra hitbox size is a double edge sword that actually HELPS players gap close a hunter, so its a distinct disadvantage in most cases. Even if the tauren had a smaller deadzone with melee that overlapped into the typical deadzone range, the hunter can still be gap closed either way. I'm not certain of how this works until I get the chance to test it on Classic but it is super interesting. The outcome of this would definitely change how I approached fighting a tauren hunter from an Alliance perspective.

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Topic starter Posted : 05/06/2019 1:40 pm
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

The outcome of this would definitely change how I approached fighting a tauren hunter from an Alliance perspective.
heathen! LoL

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Posted : 05/06/2019 8:29 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

The outcome of this would definitely change how I approached fighting a tauren hunter from an Alliance perspective.
heathen! LoL
I know right... I'll be playing both sides unfortunately =(... No faction pride here. Starting with horde tho!!!

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Topic starter Posted : 05/06/2019 8:36 pm
Lendryn
(@lendryn)
Estimable Member

Pardon the thread necro. I caught Traque in Perplexity's stream chat just now and probed him on this:

Vid on the leeway he's talking about:

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Posted : 20/06/2019 9:43 am
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