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Horde and Alliance warrior: I've been trying to make a choice for weeks now

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Raiken
(@raiken)
Eminent Member

Choosing a race for alliance warriors is a bit more nuanced... Gnomes present an excellent case for PvP and Humans are BiS for PVE. Dwarves are no slouches and Shadowmeld has some great world PvP applications as well as flag defense in BG's. The nightelf and dwarf being the weakest two options here, but alliance warriors have a lot to think about. Horde do not.

you think horde warrior (orc) is as decent in pvp as its alliance counterpart, or does the absence of blessing of freedom + cleanse hurt a lot?

The absence of paladins hurts a lot in every aspect of the game. If I had a friend struggling to decide between a shaman or a paladin and we were both intending to push rank together, I would advocate that we played on ally and he went paladin to heal me. Every individual circumstance will be different... Generally speaking I think that for the average warrior who does not have a dedicated healer, both PvP experiences will be similar in pug groups with no organization. If you are playing as part of an organized team, you wouldnt be asking these questions anyways.

This is to say that despite paladins having great synergy with warriors, most of the paladins you randomly run into wont provide excellent value anyways and wont prioritize you as a target because most players are relatively bad at the game.

Yeah, bummer, It really looks like horde is more fun with windfury and the agressive side of the horde in general, but alliance sounds straight up better with pallies when you premade :s

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Topic starter Posted : 26/06/2019 11:36 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Yeah, bummer, It really looks like horde is more fun with windfury and the agressive side of the horde in general, but alliance sounds straight up better with pallies when you premade :s

This is basically the case. From my experience doing premades, both during retail vanilla on my rank grind and since on private servers, horde have a slight edge early on due to how low everyones stats are and then once people get raid gear, paladins carry hard right up until Naxx. Once people are Naxx geared (very few are still doing premades or bothering with organized PvP) the bursty throughput of players this geared is FAR too volatile to mitigate and the edge slips slightly in favor of the horde due to the aggressive nature of shaman purges, elemental burst and windfury.

We aren't seeing BG's until phase 3, which means that good players will be in tier 2 gear. This essentially means that alliance will have the definitive edge until players are Naxx geared, but few players who are Naxx geared actively participate in the rank grind because they are less incentivized to do so as they are already geared.

All of this being said, the difference is very subtle, and the competence of a team will likely outweigh the minute differences regarding paladins. Also, if you are in a premade, youre going to smash everyone anyways. It will be very rare that you are matched against other premades. Typically if you are, one is okay with throwing anyways. Unless we have crossrealm BG's, premade dodging will also be an issue, resulting in even fewer cases where premades are against eachother. This is the unfortunate reality of the rank grind. Honor per hour.

As a solo player though, you will have a similar experience with either faction. If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider alliance. If you have a premade team lined up, you will roll with whatever faction they choose and you will decimate in 95+% of your games. Even if you chose an awful class race combo like undead warrior or troll warrior... It simply wont matter.

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Posted : 26/06/2019 11:44 pm
Raiken
(@raiken)
Eminent Member

As a solo player though, you will have a similar experience with either faction. If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider alliance. If you have a premade team lined up, you will roll with whatever faction they choose and you will decimate in 95+% of your games.

I have a lot of friends who all want to make a guild on the horde side (so I was thinking about joining them), but no "dedicated healbot" unfortunately :D.

I might have to reconsider this all over again though: if alliance has so many perks, then rethinking all of this might not be a bad idea/

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Topic starter Posted : 26/06/2019 11:48 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

As a solo player though, you will have a similar experience with either faction. If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider alliance. If you have a premade team lined up, you will roll with whatever faction they choose and you will decimate in 95+% of your games.

I have a lot of friends who all want to make a guild on the horde side (so I was thinking about joining them), but no "dedicated healbot" unfortunately :D.

I might have to reconsider this all over again though: if alliance has so many perks, then rethinking all of this might not be a bad idea/

Go with your friends. The minute differences in these two choices from a solo player is not worth playing without your friends. You will likely end up kicking yourself in the butt for not spending your time leveling with them. Dont choose your race/class combo based on its potential to have synergy with another class like paladin, when you wont even be playing with a paladin consistently. As a warrior that has no paladin friends, you will be let down by a lot more prot paladin tanks and ret paladin meme specs than you will be helped by holy paladins. Just play with your buddies and be the best warrior you can be. In the meantime, try to convince one of them into becoming your heal bot.

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Posted : 26/06/2019 11:57 pm
Psojed
(@psojed)
Trusted Member

-going horde means you're probably going to have more fun in pve due to windfury totem

-Going alliance means you're gonna get the OP paladins blessings: kings, might, salvation...

Fun fact. If you're tryhard enough, you CAN get paladin blessings as a Horde Warrior and go fight a boss while they last. But you CANNOT get Windfury Totem as Alliance Warrior and go fight a boss while it lasts Smile
PS:

As a solo player though, you will have a similar experience with either faction. If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider alliance. If you have a premade team lined up, you will roll with whatever faction they choose and you will decimate in 95+% of your games. Even if you chose an awful class race combo like undead warrior or troll warrior... It simply wont matter.

I think this final part is poorly worded.
It should have been "If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider joining the same faction."
Also I don't believe that either undead or troll warrior is an "awful class race combo".

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Posted : 27/06/2019 6:17 am
Psojed
(@psojed)
Trusted Member

As a solo player though, you will have a similar experience with either faction. If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider alliance. If you have a premade team lined up, you will roll with whatever faction they choose and you will decimate in 95+% of your games. Even if you chose an awful class race combo like undead warrior or troll warrior... It simply wont matter.

I think this final part is poorly worded.
It should have been "If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider joining the same faction."
Also I don't believe that either undead or troll warrior is an "awful class race combo".

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Posted : 27/06/2019 6:22 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

I think this final part is poorly worded.
It should have been "If you have a close friend who intends to be your dedicated healer, you should consider joining the same faction."
Also I don't believe that either undead or troll warrior is an "awful class race combo".

No, I specifically worded as was intended. From a PvP perspective, troll warrior and undead warrior are both suboptimal because Orcs exist. They are both awful class/race combinations. OP's post is exploring this from a min/max lens. The guy is going SO min/max, that hes willing to reroll for his classes synergy on another faction... In OP's circumstance, he should min/max and play an Orc if he chooses to roll horde. If he chooses to go alliance he should roll Human for PvE and for PvP he will need to make a choice (likely gnome).

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Posted : 27/06/2019 12:43 pm
Psojed
(@psojed)
Trusted Member

There isn't an optimal race in PvP. It's just about preference.
From a PvP perspective, I consider WotF to be the best racial that horde races can offer, so saying the undead is suboptimal sounds like a joke.
Trolls may not have stun resistance, but not having it won't diminish your performance in PvP.
And if you're into total min/maxing, Trolls have the most starting Agility as Warriors along with the most points distributed between STR/AGI/STA.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 1:14 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

There isn't an optimal race in PvP. It's just about preference.

False. When considering the optimal race you must consider which race will serve you the best in the MAJORITY of circumstances. There is a reason that high level premade teams trend towards specific racials. Some racials simply outvalue other racials. All racials are cicrumstantially relevant, but when choosing a racial for PvP, you should be choosing the racial that will provide you with the most value. For a Horde warrior, that will be Orc Hardiness.
From a PvP perspective, I consider WotF to be the best racial that horde races can offer, so saying the undead is suboptimal sounds like a joke.

You would be incorrect. Without hijacking this thread though I would recommend you checkout some of the other threads on this topic. I wont bother linking any specific thread because there are many of them.
Trolls may not have stun resistance, but not having it won't diminish your performance in PvP.
And if you're into total min/maxing, Trolls have the most starting Agility as Warriors along with the most points distributed between STR/AGI/STA.

I can't. I am willing to make a case for why WoTF is inferior to Orc Hardiness in the case of a warrior (because WoTF is a strong racial)... Hell, I am willing to explain why Tauren warstomp and additional range simply cant outvalue Hardiness... I wont explain why trolls are completely irrelevant in PvP as a warrior.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 1:18 pm
ejangle
(@ejangle)
Trusted Member

For what it's worth, one of the best PVP warriors in vanilla was undead (assuming you'll agree that Laintime deserves that distinction).

If you fancy the UD aesthetic, an extra CC break, or the ability to insult/cannibalize your enemy, rolling undead vs. orc isn't going to be the thing that makes you bad or good.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 1:30 pm
Psojed
(@psojed)
Trusted Member

False. When considering the optimal race you must consider which race will serve you the best in the MAJORITY of circumstances. There is a reason that high level premade teams trend towards specific racials. Some racials simply outvalue other racials. All racials are cicrumstantially relevant, but when choosing a racial for PvP, you should be choosing the racial that will provide you with the most value. For a Horde warrior, that will be Orc Hardiness.
Well, you can pick members for your premade however you see fit. But when I pick members for a premade, I won't look at which race you're playing, I'll look at how good you are at playing your class.
Yes, some racials are better than other racials. Hardiness is certainly not better than Will of the Forsaken.
I can't. I am willing to make a case for why WoTF is inferior to Orc Hardiness in the case of a warrior (because WoTF is a strong racial)... Hell, I am willing to explain why Tauren warstomp and additional range simply cant outvalue Hardiness... I wont explain why trolls are completely irrelevant in PvP as a warrior.

Nobody asked you to Smile Like I said, race is a personal preference thing. To each their own.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 1:43 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

For what it's worth, one of the best PVP warriors in vanilla was undead (assuming you'll agree that Laintime deserves that distinction).

If you fancy the UD aesthetic, an extra CC break, or the ability to insult/cannibalize your enemy, rolling undead vs. orc isn't going to be the thing that makes you bad or good.

Yeah, a lot of us chose suboptimal specs because we didn't have the same access to information that we do now. The time investment it took to get 60 was/is immense. It was simply too late for most of us to switch once we had arrived at 60. In an era where keybinds separated you from the bottom tier of players, you had a lot of wiggle room to make poor choices and still win. The new generation that will be returning to Classic are used to min/maxing. The differences in racials will matter in the top tier of play. WoTF is not a bad racial, the issue is that +25% stun resist is massive. There are more stuns in the game than there are fears and warriors already have answers to fears, they only have a trinket to answer stuns (Good pvpers will be cycling trinkets and this may not even be equipped). Hardiness is superior to WoTF for warriors unless they are specifically fighting alliance warlocks, who will be underpopulated due to the fact that the horde will boast a whopping 40-50% undead populace. This increase in population discourages serious alliance PvPers to roll as a warlock in some circumstances. Regardless, stun resist will serve you better against the majority of your opponents. Even the competent warlocks you face will have grenades, meaning they will still have a meaningful ranged stun.

See Deathwish, Recklessness and Berserker Rage (30 second cooldown, immunity for 10 seconds). WoTF is overkill for a warrior who already has the ability to remove fear AND become immune to it in a variety of ways.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 1:46 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Well, you can pick members for your premade however you see fit. But when I pick members for a premade, I won't look at which race you're playing, I'll look at how good you are at playing your class.
Yes, some racials are better than other racials. Hardiness is certainly not better than Will of the Forsaken.

Premades will win the majority of their games. You could run 10 prot warriors and have a good shot against unorganized groups of turds. The reality is that most "good" players, will make good choices and thus will min/max. Part of being good is being prepared by taking the best racial, spec, professions, consumes and gearing. Min/maxing your racial is one small part of being good. All these subtle advantages add up. Which is why good players will choose optimal racials. Hardiness is definitively better than WoTF as a general racial for warriors. To say otherwise is ignorant.
Nobody asked you to Smile Like I said, race is a personal preference thing. To each their own.

Agreed. Until we begin to enter the realm of what is optimal. Then there is a best. OP's questions are related to performance. If you dont care about your performance and prefer to make choices based on aesthetics, all the power to you! Just dont try to justify those choices by saying your choices can be justified by sub optimal racials... They cant be.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 2:09 pm
Linguine
(@linguine)
Reputable Member

Whenever you see a pally doing its thing you're going to wish you were there.

But most of the time those Alliance warriors are toughing it out alone in the trenches. Most of those pallies are ret, and you don't want to be that guy trying to demand heals. a) Never works, b) They were once that guy and that's why they're playing a ret pally: to heal themselves.

Unless you heavily emphasize teamplay, or know someone already who will be the pally as Stfuppercut already mentioned, the orc is going to be the choice for you since it seems you enjoy the lore and look better already. You're getting best PvE + PvP racials in one, not a bad deal at all.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 2:24 pm
ejangle
(@ejangle)
Trusted Member

One piece of advice that served me well solo queueing in rando-scrub BG's is to pick a healer (or healing class) and defend them in the battle early on. More often than not, they'll reciprocate and throw some heals back in your direction. Perhaps common sense, but I've found in MMO's that common sense isn't so common.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 3:06 pm
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