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Cleavis
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Place a Mana Spring Totem (it gives threat to you)

Mana Spring Totem isn't supposed to cause threat.

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.ph p"> https://web.archive.org/web/20070105001753/http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php
"for example mana from Blessing of Wisdom or a Mana Spring totem doesnt cause threat"

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Gensei
Posts: 398
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Before even reading: thank you. I dreamed about a guide like this. I tried so many time to do a leveling shaman to tank some dungeons here and there (no raiding in my goals) and usually hitted a wall with people not wanting me as a tank. This guide will only reinforce my dream Smile Shaman ALT incoming for sure!

See my post after yours. I think it can be viable as a second tank/buffer/dps in 5 man groups. Not sure about raids.

@Gensei Shamans tanking has grown tremendously since Vanilla. They can tank the majority of raid bosses out there. I was capable of reaching AQ, just before the server I was playing on was closed. Keep in mind, I was not using special event buffs. With these buffs, I would confidently see myself tanking NAXX.

Have a nice day Mr. Green

Do you have a gear list of what you were using in MC?

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Sanniey
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I have no time to read right now, but well definitely look into this as I'm probably going to main a Shaman in Classic! Thanks 1000x!!!

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Mizu
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 Mizu
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For anyone wondering, none of this is even remotely necessary to tank 5-mans or even early raids. For much of the game, Shaman threat exceeds that of Warriors rather effortlessly, and their survivability isn't as much of an issue as you might expect. Don't feel as though this is something you have to wait until AQ40/Naxx BIS before hoping to attempt, as you can (and honestly should) start collecting tank gear as early on as possible and be prepared to fill the role when needed throughout your leveling journey.

Interesting guide but has this ever been attempted in a raid or is it just for dungeons at best?

@Nymis Shamans tanking has grown tremendously since Vanilla. They can tank the majority of raid bosses out there. I was capable of reaching AQ, just before the server I was playing on was closed. Keep in mind, I was not using special event buffs. With these buffs, I would confidently see myself tanking NAXX.

Have a nice day Mr. Green

Yeah, that's fair, it's just that I can't seem to find a single video of that or any proof of it happening, private server or otherwise - in anything other than a dungeon setting. Maybe it's just me not looking long enough but I find it hard to believe this actually happened without some proof.

Here's a video of my guild's third Vael kill. There's no footage of the first one, so you'll have to take my word for it when I say I was the first tank on that as well. ZG was open prior to BWL on the server, but I used no gear from it on this fight.

I've tanked every leveling 5-man at the appropriate level as well as each 60 dungeon, UBRS included, significantly undergeared (I repeated this on The Rebirth as well as Kronos 2, with comparable success). I've also offtanked MC, BWL and ZG progression, sometimes main tanking fights where the extra threat generation could be taken advantage of. I'm also a huge slacker and cut lots of corners. I can personally answer any questions about the viability of progression tanking at those stages, beyond which I don't know enough to really comment on.

I'm also new to this forum; saw a Shaman tanking thread and couldn't help myself.
Cool stuff btw OP. Mr. Green

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Rinkusan
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I can't believe what I just read, I'm into this kind of shit.

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abyss
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Hello Caperfin!

Amazing guide; I've read this over a few times and come back often in my theorycrafting for my own build, where I want to find a balance between tanking, PvP and DPS (Totem Twisting, Nightfall bot, probably).

I am wondering about the importance of the talent Toughness, specifically versus Weapon Mastery.

I imagine that Weapon Mastery is quite good for PvP, and will help with threat generation during tanking, but I would be forgoing Toughness for this, which means lowering my EHP.

Is Toughness' mitigation percentage substancial overall?

I am playing around with a few builds right now, so I don't have just one to link for context, but the essence of my dilemma is written above.

Thank you for the marvelous guide!

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Mizu
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 Mizu
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Hello Caperfin!

Amazing guide; I've read this over a few times and come back often in my theorycrafting for my own build, where I want to find a balance between tanking, PvP and DPS (Totem Twisting, Nightfall bot, probably).

I am wondering about the importance of the talent Toughness, specifically versus Weapon Mastery.

I imagine that Weapon Mastery is quite good for PvP, and will help with threat generation during tanking, but I would be forgoing Toughness for this, which means lowering my EHP.

Is Toughness' mitigation percentage substancial overall?

I am playing around with a few builds right now, so I don't have just one to link for context, but the essence of my dilemma is written above.

Thank you for the marvelous guide!

When you need to compromise but have your sights set on tanking and PvP, Toughness > Weapon Mastery.

Weapon Mastery is mainly important for DPSing since it's a 10% damage increase to your white hits, which is all you'd really be using in a raid setting. For holding aggro, white hits could make up anywhere from 20-50% of your threat generation depending on how much earth shocking you're doing (the far end of that spectrum being literally none), which means a 2-5% increase overall for 5 talent points. You'd get more bang for your buck with a really strong weapon from BWL and later when the weapon damage starts to outweigh the invisible additive from Rockbiter, but it's still not enough to warrant losing all that extra armor. The extra mitigation from Toughness is a huge deal considering survivability is your main weakness relative to other tanking classes.

PvP Enhance is kind of a meme, and when you're getting those triple Windfury crits, your target is dead anyway so that extra 10% would be overkill. Yeah you're not always getting Windfury procs, but your basic melee swing feels like it might as well be doing zero damage so you won't ever notice that teensy increase.

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Caperfin
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I am slowly updating the guide to reflect Classic. If there is anything I forgot or something doesn't stack, scale, etc... please let me know.

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eKyNoX
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Woohoo, Thanks Caperfin, tell us when complete!

Which parts have to be changed?

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Caperfin
Posts: 434
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Woohoo, Thanks Caperfin, tell us when complete!

Which parts have to be changed?

I need to confirm the following:
if https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12641/invulnerable-mail effect can be clicked off.
The threat generated by Rockbiter at max rank (not as easy as it sounds).
Apparently Dragon Breath Chili will stacks with food buffs, if you eat Chili after?
Debuff priority of http://classic.wowhead.com/item=13514 and how much threat it deals?
The behaviour behind https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13506/flask-of-petrification . Is like BoP, but can it be clicked off?
The threat caused by the buff: Eye of the storm, Elemental Focus, Lightning Shield, Flurry and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20554/berserking .
The threat caused by the buff http://classic.wowhead.com/item=13937 , https://classic.wowhead.com/item=8956 and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17774 .
The threat caused by https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11564/crystal-ward and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11567/crystal-spire and if it resets swing timer and if spamming it continue to generate threat?
(Phase5) The behaviour of http://classic.wowhead.com/item=21946 and the threat caused by its buff.
Behaviour of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=4397/gnomish-cloaking-device (can you drop combat in-between boss combat pulse, if timed properly?)

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20007/mageblood-potion (phase 4)
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13452/elixir-of-the-mongoose
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12460/juju-might
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13512/flask-of-supreme-power
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17774/mark-of-the-chosen
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13454/greater-arcane-elixir
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10306
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13445/elixir-of-superior-defense
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=20079/spirit-of-zanza (phase 4)
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=26119/stormcaller-spelldamage-bonus (Setbonus-phase 5)

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TJourney
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I can help with some of those from testing back in vanilla:

Vanish wipes threat and has no resist chance.

Flask of Petrification prevents movement, attacking, and spell casting - but you become immune to damage. It does not wipe threat, but you cannot have aggro unless there are no other targets on the threat table or you have the enemy taunted. Enemies will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table.

Limited Invulnerability Potion works like Blessing of Protection - enemies which deal physical damage will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table. It does not modify or reset your threat or threat generation, you will continue to generate threat while under the effect, and can potentially gain aggro once the effect ends if this puts you in 1st with 110% or 130% of whoever has aggro.

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Stfuppercut
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I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.

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Selexin
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I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.

I don't think Shaman can tank progression fights in raids. I think maybe prot paladin can do some progression stuff but not well. Like you say, it would still be interesting to see some videos of attempts etc.

I like the idea of shaman tanks. But they were unfortunately just not designed to tank raids. They were designed as a backup/emergency tank in certain dungeon situations. They weren't intended to soak crushing blows from patchwerk. Caster tanks wearing mail are a cool concept, but they are missing key ingredients. They suffer from the hybrid tax. Druids are good at healing and tanking. Shamans are good at healing, and elemental PvP. Paladins are good at healing.... prot has some utility in tanking dungeons, but are pretty harshly hybrid taxed.

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Stfuppercut
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I don't think Shaman can tank progression fights in raids. I think maybe prot paladin can do some progression stuff but not well. Like you say, it would still be interesting to see some videos of attempts etc.

I like the idea of shaman tanks. But they were unfortunately just not designed to tank raids. They were designed as a backup/emergency tank in certain dungeon situations. They weren't intended to soak crushing blows from patchwerk. Caster tanks wearing mail are a cool concept, but they are missing key ingredients. They suffer from the hybrid tax. Druids are good at healing and tanking. Shamans are good at healing, and elemental PvP. Paladins are good at healing.... prot has some utility in tanking dungeons, but are pretty harshly hybrid taxed.

I agree. And if that is the case, they are not viable as tanks so conversations about enhance tanking are silly. Because technically anything can tank with the right amount of heals and gear. People will just spam them to death while they rock every consume in the game... This doesnt make it viable.

When considering if something is viable, we should ask ourselves if these things are worth doing.

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Selexin
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When considering if something is viable, we should ask ourselves if these things are worth doing.

Worth doing is subjective. People do get enjoyment out of a mage tanking an encounter, because it's "breaking the rules". It's certainly not optimal, and obviously if it 'works' you could call it viable, but in that case nearly anything is viable.

I won't stop anyone from trying these things - but they certainly aren't going to become mainstream, optimal, or overly viable to the normal player. They will provide enjoyment and engagement from a part of the community, so it is what it is I guess.

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