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Thoughts on Arena Skirmish in Classic?

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KezanIslander
(@kezanislander)
Eminent Member

As some of you might know you could do Arena in Vanilla WoW. It was only Skirmishes since the rating system wasn't implemented until TBC. How do you feel about Arena in Classic? Obviously, it wouldn't work like it did in TBC, but would having Skirmishes be ok?

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Topic starter Posted : 26/11/2019 5:50 pm
Erik
 Erik
(@erik)
Reputable Member

Not sure how long Blizzard is planning on going with patches but I think skirmishes came last months before TBC and ranked started with TBC. I'm #nochanges so if they implement it same way they did in Vanilla I wouldn't mind.

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Posted : 26/11/2019 10:23 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Redridgegnoll is coming at PvP implementations from every angle he can think of hahaha. Naw, it wouldnt suit the game. Classes are really imbalanced in Classic which is magnified in a 2v2 or 3v3 setting, this would underscore the inherent balancing issues with the game. In large scale combat, individual balance is less important and the rock paper scissors matchups actually work really well. Vanilla was balanced around largescale combat, I wouldnt want to see that diminished when the focus of PvP became smaller scale.

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Posted : 27/11/2019 1:58 am
Caperfin
(@caperfin)
Reputable Member

If they would implement a PTR server and Blizz would organise ladders and such this could be a thing.

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Posted : 27/11/2019 2:12 am
Nyxt
 Nyxt
(@nyxt)
Reputable Member

Vanilla was balanced around largescale combat, I wouldnt want to see that diminished when the focus of PvP became smaller scale.

This, but also that was the TBC patch where we got TBC talents to play with as well...as much as that was in vanilla it was TBC content aka after 1.12.
Eventually something will need to be done because we will be done with content...but for now lets stay the course...enjoy it till its almost over and revive it with taking down the burning crusade...spoiler... Eek

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Posted : 27/11/2019 5:16 am
KezanIslander
(@kezanislander)
Eminent Member

Redridgegnoll is coming at PvP implementations from every angle he can think of hahaha. Naw, it wouldnt suit the game. Classes are really imbalanced in Classic which is magnified in a 2v2 or 3v3 setting, this would underscore the inherent balancing issues with the game. In large scale combat, individual balance is less important and the rock paper scissors matchups actually work really well. Vanilla was balanced around largescale combat, I wouldnt want to see that diminished when the focus of PvP became smaller shcale.

1v1 dueling is pretty balanced aside from a few matchups as shown by the Classic Duelers League event. It's not like Arena was ever that well balanced in the expansions.

Vanilla WoW was not balanced around large scale combat. It was heavily balanced around solo combat or small group combat. The game intended for all classes to be able to quest solo by killing one mob at a time. Blizzard intentionally designed the game to be less group or class dependent.

Large scale PvP in WoW has always been terrible due to how class mechanics worked. The combat was never designed for it. If you notice there are basically no AE crowd control abilities or classes. AE damage and healing abilities are also very weak in WoW relative to some other MMOs. Almost all damage sources are meant for single target.

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Topic starter Posted : 27/11/2019 9:20 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

1v1 dueling is pretty balanced aside from a few matchups as shown by the Classic Duelers League event. It's not like Arena was ever that well balanced in the expansions.

The Classic duelers league has an extensive ruleset. Certain classes arent even allowed to use certain abilities. There are plenty of restrictions of combat sequences. For example a rogue cant "delay" combat which is very subjective. In a skirmish mode a rogue would interrupt combat for a prolonged period of time to wait for the best possible opener (ie. cooldowns). If you are an experienced arena player and watch the stringent ruleset of the CDL, you would understand that the CDL is designed to be as balanced as it can be. Certain abilities like fear often end duels in the CDL due to the combat zone being so small in a duel, so winning warlocks are less inclined to spam fear in certain circumstances because they could forfeit their win and reset the duel if they fear their foe out of the duel area OR they could be accused of delaying combat and lose the round. This is all to say that the matchups in the CDL would not translate to similar outcomes in an environment with less rules. Worse yet, certain classes combine with others INCREDIBLY well...

Some of the things CDL has banned?
Arcane Bomb is banned.
Flash Bomb is banned.
Goblin Rocket Helmet it is banned.
Gnomish Mind Control Cap is banned.
Arcanite Dragonling is banned.
Thistle Tea is banned
Healthstones are banned (even for warlocks)
Tidal Charm is banned.
Lifestone is banned.
Furbolg Medicine Pouch is banned.
...
Stealth Classes will always get the uncontested opener in a duel.
...
Shaman may have up to 4 totems down at the start of a duel.
...
In Rogue vs. Rogue matchup, each competitor will trade an uncontested opener on their opponent. If the match goes to 3, the third match will begin with both Rogues 20 yards apart in stealth and commencing the duel without moving beyond the 20 yard perimeter. Dire Maul stamina buffs and Power Word: Fortitude will be granted to each Rogue.
...

I mean... Their list is HUGE. And VERY detailed. They went very deep to try and balance classes.

The CDL has a HEAVILY modified ruleset to accomodate for short-comings in specific classes. Balance. The CDL has done its best to BALANCE the game. Taking the classes as they are and porting them into an arena setting would be bad. Come on man, think about it.

But dont take my word for it...

"The league will also feature a comprehensive ruleset designed to balance the scales between the classes"- CDL
https://www.method.gg/

Vanilla WoW was not balanced around large scale combat.

Yes it was.
It was heavily balanced around solo combat or small group combat. The game intended for all classes to be able to quest solo by killing one mob at a time. Blizzard intentionally designed the game to be less group or class dependent.

No. Vanilla was a raiding game. The game was balanced around raiding. Which is why about 90% of the content in vanilla is raids.
Large scale PvP in WoW has always been terrible due to how class mechanics worked. The combat was never designed for it. If you notice there are basically no AE crowd control abilities or classes. AE damage and healing abilities are also very weak in WoW relative to some other MMOs.
Let me introduce you to the frost mage, who has a wide array of AE crowd control abilities. He disagrees with your assessment.
Almost all damage sources are meant for single target.

Warriors can cleave (WW, sweeping strikes, etc). AE fear. Piercing howl for snares
Hunters can multi shot, volley and trap
Mages have MANY AE options
Warlocks can hellfire and rain of fire, howl of terror
Priests can holy nova, AE fear
bla bla bla Sapper charges, bla bla bla grenades... bla bla bla various trinkets... bla bla bla, everyone has AE.

The game is balanced around PvE. PvE is focused around 40 man combat in a raid environment. PvP is 10-40 man and any adjustments made for PvP were made within this context. Youre out of touch friend.

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Posted : 27/11/2019 12:20 pm
KezanIslander
(@kezanislander)
Eminent Member

Your ignorance of pre-WoW mmorpgs is very apparent. WoW was designed with solo gameplay in mind. Any class could solo level to 60. Groups required less class synergy than in Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot. Your group was no longer crippled if you lacked a specific class. Blizzard watered down RPG class archetypes into a simple Tank/DPS/Healer pyramid. They removed buff classes and decreased the power of class buffs. They gave support classes multiple roles and playstyles. They gave offensive and defensive abilities to all classes, aschewing the "pure" dps or healer class mechanics of other mmorpgs.

The game has little to no AE class abilities. Other mmorpgs had classes that were designed solely for AE damage, crowd control, and healing. Large scale PvP was never a design goal of WoW, which is partly why it is so lacklustre and low skill.

The classes were not designed around 40 man raiding. They were designed for casual and small group gameplay. Blizzard continually homogenized the classes throughout Vanilla, because that is what the playerbase demanded. There is a reason you can do Molten Core with 40 Druids or 40 Shaman. Think of your MC raid. Do you really need 5 of each class? Of course not. Multiple classes can fill multiple jobs just fine. In a game like DAOC, if you were missing a specific class/spec, well then guess what, you were doomed.

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Topic starter Posted : 27/11/2019 12:58 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

The game has little to no AE class abilities.

This is factually incorrect. Unrelated question, why dont you post on your Redridgegnoll account anymore?

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Posted : 27/11/2019 1:07 pm
FTHforever
(@fthforever)
Estimable Member

I am again impressed by Stfuppercuts patience on discussing with trolls without getting personal or throwing insults.

KezanIslander please talk about WoW, I don't care about what other games did in a WoW classic forum. Also the quessing game "what if...?" is useless. Even though classic isn't 100% vanilla the only way they do non-vanilla content is by advancing into TBC.

I think the classic team is still small, despite the financial success ( maybe because they had such a success with a small team came back to them here 😐 ) else we would have better server stability, faster bugfixes and yes, the possibility to create actually new content.

On the topic on how they balanced WoW, I sometimes think they just copied Diablo 2:
Amazon has good range and a pet, Barbs are useless without gear, Druids are mediocre, Paladins are easy, Necros use curses, Assassin's can combo and kick and finally Sorcs get Blizzard and are f***ing overpowered. 😛

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Posted : 27/11/2019 11:45 pm
KezanIslander
(@kezanislander)
Eminent Member

The game has little to no AE class abilities.

This is factually incorrect. Unrelated question, why dont you post on your Redridgegnoll account anymore?

My other accounts were banned or something. I like Classic a lot, but there's no competitive PvP. It's kind of like yeah let's grind honor for a bunch of rewards that don't really matter. If you already have raid gear then only the Rank 13/14 rewards are actually worth it. Climbing honor rank isn't skill based.

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Topic starter Posted : 28/11/2019 12:36 pm
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

Stfuppercut, it's nice to see you have reason to post again Wink
KezanIslander, arena was fun, in TBC - so when they inevitably release Classic TBC, we will play it then. No need to mess with Vanilla PvP now - BGs are due in 2 weeks time, with PvE content like BWL coming early next year. There is plenty of enjoyable content coming soon so you won't need to worry about getting steamrolled in Light's Hope Chapel so much.

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Posted : 28/11/2019 1:40 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Climbing honor rank isn't skill based.

No one said it was... Classic isnt skill based. Its a very social game. I dont think youre looking for Classic, I think youre interested in something else.

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Posted : 28/11/2019 2:53 pm
almarsguides
(@almarsguides)
Eminent Member

Climbing honor rank isn't skill based.

No one said it was... Classic isnt skill based. Its a very social game. I dont think youre looking for Classic, I think youre interested in something else.

Classic isnt skill based? Wut? Classic WoW has like the highest skill cap of most mmorpgs. I also highly disagree that it is a social game as you can hit rank 13/14 without being very social which means you can get amazing gear as a solo player. I never raided in original classic and played the game like a solo player game with an auction house and match making.

This time around im 5 boxing and it’s still not a social game for me since i don’t have to talk to anyone for anything unless i raid

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Posted : 28/11/2019 10:23 pm
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Classic isnt skill based? Wut? Classic WoW has like the highest skill cap of most mmorpgs.

What version of Classic are you playing?
I also highly disagree that it is a social game as you can hit rank 13/14 without being very social which means you can get amazing gear as a solo player.

Goodluck climbing to 14 on your own. As someone who has done the grind to 13 myself, premades are a large part of that grind and with BG's right around the corner, most brackets will require premade farming for the forseeable future to remain competitive. You wont see many players getting to 13-14 as a solo.
This time around im 5 boxing and it’s still not a social game for me since i don’t have to talk to anyone for anything unless i raid

So youre an outlier (you multibox). Can you play solo? Yes. This isnt the reality for the majority. The skill requirement for pushing rank 14 is very low. It requires a lot of time and possibly a premade. The skill requirement for raiding is also incredibly low, but requires communicating and coordinating with 39 other players. The game is social. This is especially true in the very nerfed version we are playing.

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Posted : 28/11/2019 10:44 pm
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