Changes in PvP system
the whole point is not about reducing the effort you need to put in, but more about making the system more reasonable
Does making the system more "reasonable" means there is going to be less effort, objectively measured by the passage of time while engaged in PvP activities in this case, in order to obtain the same reward? Since the answer is yes, then you are only rephrasing what I've just said.
I'm not saying that honor points are perfect but it's the first system they've introduced to fix this. You have to admit that 16 hours a day is absolutely insane and there is no skill involved and even the most skilled PvPers have to work or go to school and also have to eat and sleep. It's just a faulty system by default and even if you put all your free time into WoW (say 8 hours) it's just impossible. There's a reason why it was the first thing they changed with TBC. Also TBC in this regard is considered even better than Vanilla, so why not borrow a bit from it too?
"Skilled" people are already getting their gear and getting ranks is less about skill and more about time dedication, but that's besides the point.
The reason you have to spend "16 hours a day" is because someone else is spending 15 hours a day. That's the point of this system. It's not a faulty system by default because the rewards are based off the person who has the best standing on the server. If by "faulty" you mean that it doesn't allow casuals to get the same rewards as the people who are spending a lot of time in this game, then yeah it's completely broken. Their opinion on what is and isn't a "reasonable" effort is not a very relevant perspective.
The honor point system was introduced alongside the arena system and "TBC is better than Vanilla" is an anecdotal and irrelevant argument to make. The main reason it's "better" is because it has better balancing in PvE for most classes and it introduced Arena, but that's a completely different subject and very besides the point on that as well. The reason it shouldn't be TBC is because that's not the point of Classic Wow, by definition of what their intent is on deciding to make this game in the first place.
If you want total authenticity you can always visit a private server which may not be to 100% blizzlike in droprates and stuff
No no no, if YOU want half-assed changes to something they've said was going to be as close as possible to the original game, you're free to go on private servers where there's plenty of people who will share your views in any number of ways. There's servers that give you instant 60 and dungeon tier 0.5 so you can play some of those niche classes you like, other servers that have raids tuned to 5 mans to make raiding more accessible. I know a server that will give you free consumables because it sucks to have to farm consumables for raids and so forth.
It's the people like me who have no place to go for an authentic experience because the data is skewed and long-forgotten, same people who signed a petition for Blizzard to release an authentic Vanilla WoW recreation, not a patched up casual fun-fest for 30 year olds to grind their ass unto Field Marshals on their 3 hour a week play schedule, same people who've pushed to even have this Classic experience in the first place - not the tourists, not the "I don't want any changes, but..." crowd. As far as principles are concerned, anyone who is for changes can go elsewhere.
Slippery slope argument is stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have so we can implement only the positive ones (like loot sharing). There is really no reason to be so purist.
Personal opinions which betray trivial knowledge of the game's mechanics and history are also stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have had on the game so we know that there is no such thing as only "positive" changes, as all of the changes added to the game have had a negative impact as well. There's no reason to act like a casual and ask for Blizzard to adjust the game to your schedule and instead you should either try to adjust to the game's schedule or accept that the point of this game is to recreate Vanilla, not to implement your personal game design philosophies.
Do you want a broken game that's gonna be exploited till it's death or an actual fun experience with all the good stuff from Vanilla with just a bunch of tweaks that will make the game live longer?
Save those concerns for at least 3 years from now when they might actually matter to the people who are still going to be playing because Blizzard didn't just decide to give them a way to grind Tier 3 and R14 at a "reasonable" pace.
It's like saying the monarchy is shitty so let's have democracy like they had in ancient Greece but slavery too because they had it and it worked so why change it right?
No, it's like saying "hey, let's recreate ancient Greece for this movie but without the slavery part because slavery was not cool" and us saying "no, we'll have it in there, not because it's nice but because it's authentic".
Democracy nowadays is exactly what retail is - something which started in the past and was changed with many, many ideas all piled up on one another.
I think more people would be sympathetic to your views on changes if the rank and gear actually mattered, but the fact is the geared offered is not anything that is not made obsolete means that by no lifing and getting R13 - R14 you dont get anything other than something that looks cool for you to wear that says "congrats, you completed a miserable, awful grind, have this". I suppose a case could be made for plate wearers and R13 armour, but the weapons are nothing but a "hey look what I did" stick
Nymis I don't have any more arguments. I can see your point, you're a full blown purist and I respect that. No point in arguing here. If they don't change it I'll propably just log in BGs during weekends until I get my reps and then just never log again. Even making decay lower or removing it would help, they've done it over the course of the actual Vanilla.
Toastea Well yeah, the reason I made this post was because I rolled an Enhancement sham just for fun and I knew there were no Tier sets for him but I thought that there's definitely some off set gear from raids. Well guess what, there's like 1 piece for you per raid. So literally your only chance for a DECENT gear (still shit compared to AQ and Naxx) is R12-13. And the same goes for Feral, Shadow and Retribution. All those specs are very viable and fun in PvP but just lack decent gear and get absolutely crushed by raid geared people.
@Toastea Well yeah, the reason I made this post was because I rolled an Enhancement sham just for fun and I knew there were no Tier sets for him but I thought that there's definitely some off set gear from raids. Well guess what, there's like 1 piece for you per raid. So literally your only chance for a DECENT gear (still shit compared to AQ and Naxx) is R12-13. And the same goes for Feral, Shadow and Retribution. All those specs are very viable and fun in PvP but just lack decent gear and get absolutely crushed by raid geared people.
I cant speak for Spriests and Shamans, I can speak for feral though as someone who mained it a lot. R13 doesnt give you anything that is best in slot
The R13 helm gets beaten by Southwind helm in AQ20, which I will admit it quite the raiding investment. Even so I think you are better of just using wolfshead
The the R13 Shoulders get beaten by many shoulders dropped in both AQ 20 and 40 and if you still want to PvP the AB exalted shoulders beat the R13 ones. There are even some shoulders in Silithis Abyssal Leather Shoulders which beat it out as well
For the chest you are going to have to go to AQ40 or Naxx to get improvements, however the chest piece from Scholo Cadaverous Armor is not far behind at all.
Everything else only needs R12 at most, which is very doable and the R14 weapons are a joke for Ferals, with many other items being better than them. In fact if you wanted to gear a feral you would be more concerned with getting AV and AB rep and the first two raids. Everything else can be gotten from 60 dungeons and the R13 gear has very close substitutes
@Nymis I don't have any more arguments. I can see your point, you're a full blown purist and I respect that. No point in arguing here.
By https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=11278/magnus-frostwake 's https://classic.wowhead.com/object=202411/rotting-coffin , I say ! Comparing this https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=8257/oozeling Nymbus to the legendary Purist Thunderwrath ?!? The Omniscience might spare you but I will not !!!
casts https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=16213/purification @Krishtan
Kill gnomes. Get loot.
What's not to like?
I'm also in the #smartchanges crowd, and I think this subject is very complicated. First of all, I love the honor system, but I don't like how hard the rewards are to obtain. Ideally, the blue set would be obtainable earlier, leave the epic set where it is (it really has to feel epic) and add another set in between. Sorta like t1 t2 t3 but for PvP. However, while I would be okay with that, it would completely trump the #nochanges experience and obviously it would be very different than what it once was, so I'm gonna say no to the rework. The ranks are super cool and the epic items should be really hard to acquire, maybe not that hard, but it is what it is. You don't have to get it.
are you going to automatically say that system is bad or it can't exist?
I fancied my idea earlier that pre-made groups should have their own queue for getting the high-end PvP gear (it would not be accessible to solo players pugging in the queue). The goal of this is that solo queue/pugging is made for more accessible so people don't get their time wasted being thrown up against pre-made, well-geared enemies that they have zero chance beating, and they can still push hard for some blue quality PvP gear. Hell, if you want to get into a premade group for the epics, grind out soloqueue for the blues and prove your mettle. Meanwhile people who just want to casually PvP still can do so without fear of getting rolled by premades in unwinnable games.
Yes. Rewards should be exclusive. Yes, I think the overall distribution of rewards in vanilla was fine. I'm not saying that I'm wanting to change that (but you're acting like I am). I'm saying that the means by which that distribution can be achieved can be remedied to a more healthy state of play for both the players themselves and the community.
2. Current WoW already has systems that support these playstyles and dole out gear accordingly and many people seem to dislike it. By creating separate queues for pre-mades you are essentially recreating RBGs. Additionally, You never really have a 0% chance of winning/losing. I never made it past rank 11 and I never thought going into a BG against a premade was a waste of my time. My gear was never top-tier and I didn't care because I enjoy the fighting. It's why I will go to the gates of an Alliance city and pick a fight outside the main gate. There are many ways for people to PvP casually without doing BG's. Gear is not a necessity for PvP as there are many Vanilla PvP movies out there that will show you. I once 2-shot a R14 warrior that was part of a premade. We lost that fight but it is still one of my most memorable moments (if not THE most) in WoW.
I understand now that your stance is not about the gear and more about the overall experience for casual PvPers but my argument for that is that the system you are describing already exists.
Valid arguments throughout this thread as a whole. Cletus and I ground out Rank 11 and would have continued if our chosen profession hadn't stepped in the way pulling us out of the top 10 for honor gained. (For weeks)
Vanilla PVP is based on honor gained vs the rest of your faction. We were on Mal'ganis which was ultra Horde heavy so we had a 1 hour que for any BG. So we would run around EPL/WPL just murdering anyone we came across for supplemental honor. OR going to cities and picking fights to get as many people around us as possible.
The fact that it was all based off of honor gained is what was great about Vanilla PVP. There was no convoluted system. It was kill, rank up, earn access to gear. [Though the PVP gear is inferior to PVE gear.]
I was a hard core raider, which helped me heal/nuke people in our 6min WSG treadmills. That is the primary flaw I saw in PVP back then. We just wanted gear on par so the grind meant something equipment wise and not just for the prestige.
Bottom line, if its red it's dead. Gotta kill that daily gnome or you'll get the clap.