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Changes in PvP system

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Gensei
(@gensei)
Reputable Member

I think the PvP system as a whole is a very delicate matter. If they make the gear "easier" (as in reasonably acquirable, on the same timeline or slower than raiding) I would possibly reconsider what class I am going to play.

Reasoning is simple: Maybe I should play a class or a spec that has PvP rewards that I can actually use.

Although I am all for no changes, I would start wishing that they had a PvP set for me. And if I'm thinking about that, then surely others are. And what's to stop people from asking for a variety of PvP sets to be added once the changes start being made?

I always despise this idea that any change is a slippery slope to totally overhauling the game. It's called a fallacy for a reason.

Additionally, I don't think people are saying the gear should necessarily be "easier." I mean if you think about it, the old system wasn't that "hard" to get to high rank given your RL allowed you the time and you could physically deal with playing the game that much. That's not "hard" in the sense of a meaningful challenge.

What I was proposing above would be that the best gear is exclusively gotten from a pre-made only queue, like Ranked BG's, and there could be a number of systems in place for how it works. Achieving a certain win rate with a required minimum number of games for a month, or simple points within a given month with a per-week cap. Whatever.

It's in everyone's interest for there to be great rewards in the game for those who put forth a lot of effort and do great things in the game. It's in no one's interest to use a system that forces people to "no-life" the game to a super unhealthy extent in order to get those same rewards.

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Posted : 23/03/2019 8:02 pm
Cletus
(@cletus)
Estimable Member

@Cletus Well, actually that's the exact issue. Current system doesn't reward killing players so the premades just complete as much WSGs as they can in less than 5 minutes. You could farm the actual honor points this way and be rewarded for it too. 1 HK = 1 Honor point and you'd get some bonus honor for winning in BG. This way you're only fighting against your own faction by trying to get more honor than they have just so you get a better standing.

Agree completely. I'm worn out trying to explain this to folks over the last 10 years. Now I'm basically like that drunk homeless guy who shouts at the sky and everyone dismisses him as they pass by.

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Posted : 23/03/2019 10:39 pm
Nymis
(@nymis)
Reputable Member

I always despise this idea that any change is a slippery slope to totally overhauling the game. It's called a fallacy for a reason.

Additionally, I don't think people are saying the gear should necessarily be "easier." I mean if you think about it, the old system wasn't that "hard" to get to high rank given your RL allowed you the time and you could physically deal with playing the game that much. That's not "hard" in the sense of a meaningful challenge.

What I was proposing above would be that the best gear is exclusively gotten from a pre-made only queue, like Ranked BG's, and there could be a number of systems in place for how it works. Achieving a certain win rate with a required minimum number of games for a month, or simple points within a given month with a per-week cap. Whatever.

It's in everyone's interest for there to be great rewards in the game for those who put forth a lot of effort and do great things in the game. It's in no one's interest to use a system that forces people to "no-life" the game to a super unhealthy extent in order to get those same rewards.

First of all, it's called a "slippery slope" argument, and it's not a fallacy by default. You might want to read on it. If you can prove that the slope is real, it's an actual argument. The reason why this "slope" is actually real is because it has happened before and, given the fact that Blizzard is listening to the community, might happen again.

Secondly, it's worth noting that the changes which have lead to the game being in the current state did not happen over night. They happened very gradually and people were initially welcoming of each change - and in retrospect, if you were to propose each and every single one of those changes to Vanilla independently, most people would be alright with them. However, piece by piece they have built up into the amalgamation of casual quality of life changes which have rendered almost all the achievements in that game useless.

Thirdly, it is in a lot of people's interest that these rewards are exclusive due to the fact that these rewards derive meaning in the virtual world precisely on the lack of availability to the average player. This is the paradoxical fallacy of every "I don't want any changes, but" argument out there - if meaningful rewards become more accessible to the public, they are no longer meaningful rewards.

Finally, the fact that people want the gear to be easier to get is exactly what they are arguing about here. The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put. All these changes would make it easier for them to get the gear. Whether they think it's a great idea to do it with Honor points, minimum number of games, it's whatever - they still want to get the same gear on a level of effort which they find reasonable.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 5:39 am
Jpy
 Jpy
(@jpy)
Reputable Member

Leave it as it is. If you can’t nolife then you don’t get R14; everything doesn’t need to be accessible to everyone.

E: to clarify, this is coming from someone who 100% will not be able to get R14.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 9:21 am
Evrron
(@evrron)
Active Member

In my humble opinion, honor needed to get R12, 13 and 14 should be reduced. People nowadays don't have time for sitting in front of the screen for 14-18 hours per day for few weeks. Reducing requiresd honor to the half of the current and changing the settings of summary the ranks would be better than changing Honor system totally. I mean R14 can obtain just "Only top .1% of players can have this rank". That's insane nowadays, so f.e 0,5 or 1% of the realms players can obtain it maybe more...
Greetings!
Sorry for my poor eng :>

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Posted : 24/03/2019 9:48 am
Gensei
(@gensei)
Reputable Member

Leave it as it is. If you can’t nolife then you don’t get R14; everything doesn’t need to be accessible to everyone.

But what if you can create a system that makes these rewards just as exclusive while not requiring no lifing? Is that automatically just bad even if it achieves the same distribution of rewards?

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Posted : 24/03/2019 9:48 am
Nymis
(@nymis)
Reputable Member

Leave it as it is. If you can’t nolife then you don’t get R14; everything doesn’t need to be accessible to everyone.

But what if you can create a system that makes these rewards just as exclusive while not requiring no lifing? Is that automatically just bad even if it achieves the same distribution of rewards?

You can't if your distribution of rewards is relative to the top individual on the server.

Also, the premise of "we're creating" - us, who? The players? We're not creating jack. The developers? They're focused on recreating Vanilla WoW as it was in patch 1.12 by definition of their purpose and intent for even starting this project. The only ones who could be "creating" such systems could be the developers for private servers.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 10:16 am
Cletus
(@cletus)
Estimable Member

Leave it as it is. If you can’t nolife then you don’t get R14; everything doesn’t need to be accessible to everyone.

But what if you can create a system that makes these rewards just as exclusive while not requiring no lifing? Is that automatically just bad even if it achieves the same distribution of rewards?

I would submit that the remedy for no-lifing is to be on a low-pop pvp server, one where a person could more easily be the allstar of their server by comparison. Some drawbacks include a worse overall economy and fewer people to group with for quests, raids, etc. It's not impossible to get to R14 but you have to be willing to make certain sacrifices in other areas if you aren't willing to no-life. There doesn't need to be a new system to ensure everyone gets high level PvP gear for the same reason there doesn't need to be a system so that every caster gets https://classic.wowhead.com/item=22589/atiesh-greatstaff-of-the-guardian . The dead horse here is that R14 isn't (and shouldn't be) for everyone. The gear shouldn't be for everyone. It is intended as a reward for those few who are extraordinarily dedicated. That's what makes it a reward.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 10:40 am
Gensei
(@gensei)
Reputable Member

Leave it as it is. If you can’t nolife then you don’t get R14; everything doesn’t need to be accessible to everyone.

But what if you can create a system that makes these rewards just as exclusive while not requiring no lifing? Is that automatically just bad even if it achieves the same distribution of rewards?

I would submit that the remedy for no-lifing is to be on a low-pop pvp server, one where a person could more easily be the allstar of their server by comparison. Some drawbacks include a worse overall economy and fewer people to group with for quests, raids, etc. It's not impossible to get to R14 but you have to be willing to make certain sacrifices in other areas if you aren't willing to no-life. There doesn't need to be a new system to ensure everyone gets high level PvP gear for the same reason there doesn't need to be a system so that every caster gets https://www.wowhead.com/item=22589/atiesh-greatstaff-of-the-guardian . The dead horse here is that R14 isn't (and shouldn't be) for everyone. The gear shouldn't be for everyone. It is intended as a reward for those few who are extraordinarily dedicated. That's what makes it a reward.

...but that's not what I'm saying. Like that's literally the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you could create a system where the rewards are just as exclusive, but does not require the no-lifing, are you going to automatically say that system is bad or it can't exist?

I fancied my idea earlier that pre-made groups should have their own queue for getting the high-end PvP gear (it would not be accessible to solo players pugging in the queue). The goal of this is that solo queue/pugging is made for more accessible so people don't get their time wasted being thrown up against pre-made, well-geared enemies that they have zero chance beating, and they can still push hard for some blue quality PvP gear. Hell, if you want to get into a premade group for the epics, grind out soloqueue for the blues and prove your mettle. Meanwhile people who just want to casually PvP still can do so without fear of getting rolled by premades in unwinnable games.

Yes. Rewards should be exclusive. Yes, I think the overall distribution of rewards in vanilla was fine. I'm not saying that I'm wanting to change that (but you're acting like I am). I'm saying that the means by which that distribution can be achieved can be remedied to a more healthy state of play for both the players themselves and the community.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 10:54 am
Cletus
(@cletus)
Estimable Member

are you going to automatically say that system is bad or it can't exist?

I fancied my idea earlier that pre-made groups should have their own queue for getting the high-end PvP gear (it would not be accessible to solo players pugging in the queue). The goal of this is that solo queue/pugging is made for more accessible so people don't get their time wasted being thrown up against pre-made, well-geared enemies that they have zero chance beating, and they can still push hard for some blue quality PvP gear. Hell, if you want to get into a premade group for the epics, grind out soloqueue for the blues and prove your mettle. Meanwhile people who just want to casually PvP still can do so without fear of getting rolled by premades in unwinnable games.

Yes. Rewards should be exclusive. Yes, I think the overall distribution of rewards in vanilla was fine. I'm not saying that I'm wanting to change that (but you're acting like I am). I'm saying that the means by which that distribution can be achieved can be remedied to a more healthy state of play for both the players themselves and the community.

1. No
2. Current WoW already has systems that support these playstyles and dole out gear accordingly and many people seem to dislike it. By creating separate queues for pre-mades you are essentially recreating RBGs. Additionally, You never really have a 0% chance of winning/losing. I never made it past rank 11 and I never thought going into a BG against a premade was a waste of my time. My gear was never top-tier and I didn't care because I enjoy the fighting. It's why I will go to the gates of an Alliance city and pick a fight outside the main gate. There are many ways for people to PvP casually without doing BG's. Gear is not a necessity for PvP as there are many Vanilla PvP movies out there that will show you. I once 2-shot a R14 warrior that was part of a premade. We lost that fight but it is still one of my most memorable moments (if not THE most) in WoW.
I understand now that your stance is not about the gear and more about the overall experience for casual PvPers but my argument for that is that the system you are describing already exists.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 11:31 am
Linguine
(@linguine)
Reputable Member

I would like to add that in Vanilla the exclusivity of PvP gear already has a remedy: Raid gear is just as good if not better in some instances.

There are specs that want their PvP gear badly (spriests, retpal, feral druid if I remember correctly are some) but for people playing things such as mage, warlock, hunter, etc. their tier gear is phenomenal in PvP.

The commitment is much smaller per week, and very doable. Yes, you might have to wait a bit and coordinate with others rather than just solo pugging the entire way, but I think the whole point of this is that vanilla WoW is not for soloing if you want to get very far in either of PvP or PvE. Make friends, run raids and pre-mades and compete against other people and their friends.

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Posted : 24/03/2019 5:47 pm
Anonymous
(@anonymous_1607109007)
Honorable Member

Finally, the fact that people want the gear to be easier to get is exactly what they are arguing about here. The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put. All these changes would make it easier for them to get the gear. Whether they think it's a great idea to do it with Honor points, minimum number of games, it's whatever - they still want to get the same gear on a level of effort which they find reasonable.

I admit that maybe my proposition was a bit too simple one and would make gearing up potentially easier and more accessible. On the other hand people here have had some brilliant ideas such as reducing amount of honor needed for certain rank and dividing premades from solo players. I think you are being too general stating that "The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put.", because, the whole point is not about reducing the effort you need to put in, but more about making the system more reasonable so the actual skilled players could get the rewards they deserve.

I'm not saying that honor points are perfect but it's the first system they've introduced to fix this. You have to admit that 16 hours a day is absolutely insane and there is no skill involved and even the most skilled PvPers have to work or go to school and also have to eat and sleep. It's just a faulty system by default and even if you put all your free time into WoW (say 8 hours) it's just impossible. There's a reason why it was the first thing they changed with TBC. Also TBC in this regard is considered even better than Vanilla, so why not borrow a bit from it too?

After all, all we want in WoW Classic is longetivity so we can enjoy it as long as we please. If you want total authenticity you can always visit a private server which may not be to 100% blizzlike in droprates and stuff, it definitelly the same in terms of mechanic. There you will see why some people would like some changes. It's not because we don't like the game, in fact we like it so much we don't want to see it fail because of some systems that they didn't think through in 2004. Slippery slope argument is stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have so we can implement only the positive ones (like loot sharing). There is really no reason to be so purist.

Do you want a broken game that's gonna be exploited till it's death or an actual fun experience with all the good stuff from Vanilla with just a bunch of tweaks that will make the game live longer?

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Topic starter Posted : 26/03/2019 7:12 am
Toastea
(@toastea)
Trusted Member

Finally, the fact that people want the gear to be easier to get is exactly what they are arguing about here. The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put. All these changes would make it easier for them to get the gear. Whether they think it's a great idea to do it with Honor points, minimum number of games, it's whatever - they still want to get the same gear on a level of effort which they find reasonable.

I admit that maybe my proposition was a bit too simple one and would make gearing up potentially easier and more accessible. On the other hand people here have had some brilliant ideas such as reducing amount of honor needed for certain rank and dividing premades from solo players. I think you are being too general stating that "The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put.", because, the whole point is not about reducing the effort you need to put in, but more about making the system more reasonable so the actual skilled players could get the rewards they deserve.

I'm not saying that honor points are perfect but it's the first system they've introduced to fix this. You have to admit that 16 hours a day is absolutely insane and there is no skill involved and even the most skilled PvPers have to work or go to school and also have to eat and sleep. It's just a faulty system by default and even if you put all your free time into WoW (say 8 hours) it's just impossible. There's a reason why it was the first thing they changed with TBC. Also TBC in this regard is considered even better than Vanilla, so why not borrow a bit from it too?

After all, all we want in WoW Classic is longetivity so we can enjoy it as long as we please. If you want total authenticity you can always visit a private server which may not be to 100% blizzlike in droprates and stuff, it definitelly the same in terms of mechanic. There you will see why some people would like some changes. It's not because we don't like the game, in fact we like it so much we don't want to see it fail because of some systems that they didn't think through in 2004. Slippery slope argument is stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have so we can implement only the positive ones (like loot sharing). There is really no reason to be so purist.

Do you want a broken game that's gonna be exploited till it's death or an actual fun experience with all the good stuff from Vanilla with just a bunch of tweaks that will make the game live longer?

I dont think you will find anyone that likes the Vanilla PvP system and no one is arguing that its the better version in anyway, but that isnt the point. we did not want to bring back Vanilla to improve it. If that was the case the movement would have demanded TBC which was better in pretty much every way outside of flying (even then, flying wasnt as much of an issue as it was in later expansions due to its very high cost and barrier to entry).

They demanded classic to take it back to what the game was. We dont want a better classic. We just want classic. Class balance if done properly would make Vanilla better also, but it would be majorly changing the game. However more than that, I dont think anyone trusts Blizzard to change it in the right or positive way. I dont think its such a bad thing to just accept R14 will be for the very few and that is all. There is no shame in ranks 10 - 13

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Posted : 26/03/2019 7:26 am
Anonymous
(@anonymous_1607109007)
Honorable Member

Toastea Well that's what I was talking about towards the end of my post. The issue with purist behavior is that the whole "it's broken but let's not fix it" point of view actually damages the game. Yeah the Classic is a great game and the arguments against TBC could be that it just moved the focus of the game out of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms to Outland, with all end-game stuff being there and thus it started to make the world feel less alive. In Classic you can see 60s almost everywhere in the world because they are traveling to a raid or doing professions. All that just moves to Outland with TBC. That's why Classic is superior I think, because it makes the game feel as a one finished piece and doesn't make low level zones irrelevant.

I never mentioned class balance and I'm fully aware of what impact it would have on the whole meta and I totally understand a slippery slope argument there as we can't tell what result it would have in Classic enviroment. I believe that changing mechanics of the game such as talent trees, spells, items etc. is completely different category of changes than the changes to actual system (loot sharing, graphics, Battle.net integration, even the PvP system) as it doesn't really alter the interactions you have with other players and NPCs nor doesn't change the values. It's something that advantages everyone.

It's like saying the monarchy is shitty so let's have democracy like they had in ancient Greece but slavery too because they had it and it worked so why change it right? The point is when the majority agrees for a change and the change is meaningful there's no point in making the game worse on purpose. As I said in OP, just look on the private servers that use 2004 systems, the PvP is dead there.

Linguine Well that's what I mentioned in OP too, that some specs have gear locked behind those ranks and the stupid thing is that the raids require much less time for much better gear and if you want to play one of those specs (Ferals, Spriests, Retpals, Enha shams) you just have no alternative. The tier 2.5 and 3 are much better anyway so why lock the only decent sets for those specs behind those retarded ranks.

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Topic starter Posted : 26/03/2019 7:57 am
Toastea
(@toastea)
Trusted Member

It's like saying the monarchy is shitty so let's have democracy like they had in ancient Greece but slavery too because they had it and it worked so why change it right? The point is when the majority agrees for a change and the change is meaningful there's no point in making the game worse on purpose. As I said in OP, just look on the private servers that use 2004 systems, the PvP is dead there.

I just cant see a situation where you can change the system and still have High Warlord / Grand Marshal be as exclusive as they are. The only way I could see it being less unhealthy is perhaps get rid of Honor decay or nerf it? I dont really understand the big deal though, I thought having only one Warlord / Marshall was really cool. I totally get what you are saying and I honestly dont mean to sound condescending, but I just feel any change to the unrealistic parameters would just cheapen Rank 14. I dont see any change they could implement that wouldn't make me think when I see someone in R14 gear "meh, its not a Vanilla R14". Thats just me though and I dont care all that much for it to begin with.

I understand the point that you wanted to make is that you wanted to change the system, but keep the exclusivity. But I simply think this is not possible

Besides in the end, even Warlords and Marshalls will get the floor mopped with them when I get my raid gear 😛

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Posted : 26/03/2019 8:20 am
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