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[Sticky] [Holy Paladin] Spreadsheet for progressive item upgrades

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Xcellers
(@xcellers)
Estimable Member

This is absolutely phenomenal by the way.

This is absolutely phenomenal by the way.

Seconded, Xcellers puts out very high calibre stuff.

Seconded, Xcellers puts out very high calibre stuff.

Yeah seriously. I've spent a lot of time digging through this spreadsheet and compiling my toon's wishlist, and doing some EPGP calculations to determine how I can prioritize my most desired upgrades. LoL

Really appreciate the pats on the back guys, both sheets are significant time investments so it really means a lot that the effort is appreciated and well-received - especially after Chrome and Docs took as massive hit on stability and made any work on these 10-fold harder Roll

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Topic starter Posted : 10/12/2019 5:27 am
Erik
 Erik
(@erik)
Reputable Member

Just seen this now, this makes life easier for sure!

Thanks!

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Posted : 11/12/2019 10:20 pm
Xcellers
(@xcellers)
Estimable Member

Just seen this now, this makes life easier for sure!

Thanks!

Happy to hear man!

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Topic starter Posted : 16/12/2019 2:19 am
Ardyn
(@ardyn)
New Member

Wow - your table is indeed an absolute masterpiece! Thumbs up for all the work and effort you put in here and thank xou so much!!

I have used the gear primer a lot throughout the last few weeks and as my Paladin's gear is continuously improving, I am just starting to feel a bit insecure about the Stat Weights. Could you mybe provide some further insight on how the stat weights (e.g. 1 addheal = 1 Int = 1/12 Crit = 1/2 MP5 for the "standard" weighting) were made up? Is this some kind of gut feeling based on experience, or were there any further calculations / theorycrafting made?

Honestly speaking, I am afraid of being mis-led by those stat weights, as (for example) according to the standard weights, the Robes from Strath UD are valued higher than the Robe of Volatile Power. Most BiS-guides (and also my own gut feeling comparing those items) come to another conclusion and I am wondering if crit rating or Int might be under-valued in those stat weights...

Anyways, please don't get me wrong: Your work is absolutely outstanding and it has been a great help for me and many others - I would just like to better understand to what extent the pre-set stat weights are reasonable / reliable / usable.

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Posted : 03/01/2020 5:28 pm
Xcellers
(@xcellers)
Estimable Member

Wow - your table is indeed an absolute masterpiece! Thumbs up for all the work and effort you put in here and thank xou so much!!

I have used the gear primer a lot throughout the last few weeks and as my Paladin's gear is continuously improving, I am just starting to feel a bit insecure about the Stat Weights. Could you mybe provide some further insight on how the stat weights (e.g. 1 addheal = 1 Int = 1/12 Crit = 1/2 MP5 for the "standard" weighting) were made up? Is this some kind of gut feeling based on experience, or were there any further calculations / theorycrafting made?

Honestly speaking, I am afraid of being mis-led by those stat weights, as (for example) according to the standard weights, the Robes from Strath UD are valued higher than the Robe of Volatile Power. Most BiS-guides (and also my own gut feeling comparing those items) come to another conclusion and I am wondering if crit rating or Int might be under-valued in those stat weights...

Anyways, please don't get me wrong: Your work is absolutely outstanding and it has been a great help for me and many others - I would just like to better understand to what extent the pre-set stat weights are reasonable / reliable / usable.

Hey man,

Happy to hear that you like the sheet and that its been of use, I am always super happy to hear that people are enjoying my work, especially when its been time consuming stuff like this; I am also generally happy to help everyone that asks, and to answer questions, and yours is a popular one for sure, so lemme do my best to explain my fundamental approach to it!

Now, this project was started way back when I decided to play Holy Paladin for Classic, as the final Healer class that I needed to test out in a Vanilla setting, so its focus was actually on the "progressive gearing" in pre-raid settings, so sadly I never really considered it necessary to save all my references, as I would in an academic paper but I kinda wish i had done so, as it, much like my guild sheet project.. blew up and now has crazy many users.

Origins
Regarding the stat weights, then they are quite simply the best available desk researched data that I could gather, in the pre-launch phase of Classic. They originate from 2005-2006 era forums discussing Paladin mechanics, and exist with some minor variations, but were actually readily available (unlike for many other classes). Now, there is no such thing as a perfect stat weight, nor a perfect BiS list (which is also why I do not provide a BiS list), as these things are situational and gear dependent.

Current Tier
For MC, then these values are straight-up not excellent, we are playing the game with endgame talents, itemization and raid adjustments, so fights are much shorter and much less demanding than what they should have been; does this matter in regard to how we gear up using the standard values? - just a little; our current tier goal for gearing, is not to gear for our current tier, but rather to get ready for BWL, which should be better tuned/balanced. The standard values are, if you ask me, more appropriate as you progress into the later stages of Classic.

This is also the reason why I provide multiple options, including the ever-important custom option; if your gut feeling tells you that the reference stat weights are wrong, then you type in the ones that you think is correct, and go at it - absolutely respect that, and I had hoped from day 1 that we would have a SimCraft version ready for us soon after launch (sadly neither healing nor Holy Paladins are supported as of yet).

Crit value/evaluation
Regarding Crit, then I naturally do think that I have a bit of insight into it - without being a mathematician or anything. What I often get concerns about, is an apparent over-value put on Crit, as we have pretty good reference tools to work with here; less to understand stat weights themselves, but to better understand the value and impact of stats.

Example Test.
If we want to gain a bit of knowledge about the output value of crit, then we can gain a bit of insight using the legacy sim for FoL, I will use myself as an example because its nice and easy.

Without a chest - i am standing at:
Int: 189
+Heal: 557
Mp5: 18.5 MP5
Crit: 11.66%
w. no buffs at all.

I wish to compare the value of your two optional robes.

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13346/robes-of-the-exalted

&

https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19145/robe-of-volatile-power

- for this I will use: https://tegas.github.io/legacy-sim/#/flash-of-light and here, we only care about two stats: +healing and +crit as we want healing output (HPS)

First of all, we need to convert our item int to raw crit, as we cant leave out viable stats (STAM/SPI are regarded as useless in this context). To this end, we use a base-stat calculator such as this: https://barrens.chat/viewtopic.php?t=885

Exalted:

  • +68 heal
    +0.17% crit from raw int

  • =
  • 625 healing
    11.83% crit
  • Volatile:

  • +23 heal
    +2% crit
    +0.51% crit from raw int

  • =
  • 580 healing
    14.17% crti
  • Dropping these into the Legacy Sim, and we get two HPS values for max ranked (non-amped) FoL

    Exalted: 561.76 HPS
    Volatile: 554.19 HPS

    To me, this would indicate that the ranking between the two items is reasonable, and if i add the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=15047/red-dragonscale-breastplate to the mix, as a reference point, then it clocks in at 560.70 HPS, which also fits in to the vault rankings.

    Digging deeper
    Now, this was more as a point of reference and as a trust indicator. But there are further tools we can use to explore crit value comparisons for Holy Paladins, namely this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V5D0aZzBJ2bWSHvV5D_xAqXaA_LF2pFgYBVN_RNszYg/edit#gid=0

    This actually provides you with some really good value comparisons for various stats, and importantly provides you with +healing equivalents. Using my example stats, then we can actually see that crit is only at around +10 healing for me, as I use HEP or Heal Equivalent Points as my frame of reference, then we kinda get an indication that at 12 HEP, I am putting an overvalue on crit when considering my gear-level. This can be explained by the fact that this tool is very specific and thus much better than mine, and that mine serves another function and has to cover a lot more ground (e.g. from MC to Naxx gearing)

    As for answering your worries, then I am not sure if I am really able to - but I hope that this gives a better understanding of my approach to stat weights and to subsequently making sure that they are relatively appropriate and I do try to make sure that the system is entirely transparent and that users are able to customize it to suit their approaches to Holy Paladins.

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    Topic starter Posted : 05/01/2020 3:03 pm
    Xcellers
    (@xcellers)
    Estimable Member

    Hey all,

    For those of you still on-board with the Vault, then I have just pushed a feature update to the sheet; a compare tab



    The Compare tab is a basic tool to determine how big an upgrade switching item A to B would be, based on whatever stat weights you have selected in the top bar. Its more of a nice to have than a need to have, but it may save some trouble for some of you out there!

    As always, you are more than welcome to use your own stat weights, appropriate for your specific gear, it is in fact highly recommended that you do so, to get the best possible estimates of what is the optimal solution for you.

    Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lSZzNVHKsvG13WRnDuqbAZyQ47ktVytB3Z2CbW7XHdA/edit?usp=sharing

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    Topic starter Posted : 30/04/2020 7:43 am
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