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AoE Grinding 20+ Mage - Will it be possible with layering?

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Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

I thought you had watched the videos we were all discussing and read the Blizzard releases. I should have sourced earlier to give full context and to obtain credibility. I kind of treat this forum pretty casually... Usually just post on my phone throughout the day, but I could have communicated my point in a better way. Noted.

Just so you know what I am basing my posts off, I have included some timestamped videos discussing layering which largely allayed my fears.
(timestamped) Ion discussing Layering, it's duration and it's promise to be removed before anything significant occurs in the world:

(timestamped) Brian and Patrick really seem to be enthusiastic about trying to find a way to recreate vanilla WoW without sharding/dynamic respawns which are a retail WoW 'problem':

(timestamped) Tipsout speaks to John and Omar about layering, again I think they are trying to find a way to preserve vanilla in this unique way:

None of this disputes your claims, or provides any evidence to back me up. I guess what I took from these interviews was a sense of positivity and willingness to try to find away to recreate that vanilla feeling in Classic.

Unfortunately, from what you have surmised from the videos you have seen and your own conclusions, is that the layering tool will be heavily and regularly abused by the majority of players to disadvantage and discourage other players. This will destroy the vanilla feel. I don't think dynamic respawns or sharding are good alternatives personally, as they destroy the vanilla feel also. We will never recreate what we had, and I guess we all need to accept that and find a way to create a new positive feeling from this inbred cousin that is Classic.

I guess I will just pray to the Blizzard Gods that I roll on a low population Oceanic PvE server that doesn't require much/any layering. I would have preferred a PvP server as I really enjoyed World PvP, but if what you are saying will happen, then the experience I will get from layering will destroy our memory of vanilla WoW. I probably put too much faith in Blizzard finding a way to preserve the vanilla feel in Classic. Maybe they should do nothing and just have huge queues? Who knows. Getting griefed in PvP, having people hit 60 in 2 days, and seeing the auction house get screwed by people be able to layer farm rares may just ruin the whole experience. I was hoping to stay optimistic about layering, but there is so much negativity I am beginning to think I was in the minority.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 2:55 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

None of this disputes your claims, or provides any evidence to back me up. I guess what I took from these interviews was a sense of positivity and willingness to try to find away to recreate that vanilla feeling in Classic.

You're an optimist, I like that! They are selling a product to you, they arent going to give you bad vibes. They're going to say the things they need to say to make you buy the product (or in this case renew your sub), and that includes rebranding sharding as layering. It was a pretty diplomatic move, and it seemed to win them favor with the community. Their PR guy needs a raise. I like that they also grabbed all of these primary influencers that are feeding us content and conveniently invited them to Blizz headquarters... The same fear-mongers (looking at you tips out) who have questioned EVERY minuscule change and lead the #nochanges movement, are suddenly totally in allegiance with Blizzard and totally accepting a change with MASSIVE implications. Infact in previous posts you were actually telling me that layering IS #nochanges! If they put the same level of care into Classic as they have into their PR for this project, we have NOTHING to worry about.
Unfortunately, from what you have surmised from the videos you have seen and your own conclusions, is that the layering tool will be heavily and regularly abused by the majority of players to disadvantage and discourage other players. This will destroy the vanilla feel. I don't think dynamic respawns or sharding are good alternatives personally, as they destroy the vanilla feel also. We will never recreate what we had, and I guess we all need to accept that and find a way to create a new positive feeling from this inbred cousin that is Classic.

I have no idea how layering will turn out. I know that it sounds pretty easy to manipulate. I know that players will manipulate it if it is possible. I know that having layering for the entire duration of your leveling experience will have far wider reaching impact than dynamic respawns or temporary sharding in starting zones. Layering will absolutely destroy the "vanilla feel" for me, but I can only speak for myself and I am also open to being persuaded otherwise. I don't think the majority of players will abuse layering or even that they will consider it. I think the minority of players who will abuse sharding will have a reaching impact on those who do not, whether they are aware of it or not (most wont be - ignorance is bliss).
I guess I will just pray to the Blizzard Gods that I roll on a low population Oceanic PvE server that doesn't require much/any layering. I would have preferred a PvP server as I really enjoyed World PvP, but if what you are saying will happen, then the experience I will get from layering will destroy our memory of vanilla WoW. I probably put too much faith in Blizzard finding a way to preserve the vanilla feel in Classic. Maybe they should do nothing and just have huge queues? Who knows. Getting griefed in PvP, having people hit 60 in 2 days, and seeing the auction house get screwed by people be able to layer farm rares may just ruin the whole experience. I was hoping to stay optimistic about layering, but there is so much negativity I am beginning to think I was in the minority.

This is a bit much... I never advocated that layering will "destroy our memory of vanilla". Vanilla is vanilla. Private is private. Classic is classic. They are individual experiences and they are all unique. Vanilla was great, but if I wanted to relive vanilla, I would need a time machine. That has always been the case. I wasn't anticipating that this was going to be a 1-1 replication of the original product... I was rational enough to know that wasn't the case from the beginning. My memories of vanilla are contained within Vanilla. It sounds like you are a really optimistic guy who thinks of things in absolutes. Classic will either be perfect or a cataclysmic and abysmal failure! Layering will either be #nochanges or it will rip the fabric of our reality in two!!! All rainbows or doom... I'm somewhere in the middle. In regards to your comment about queues - No. They NEEDED to do something about launch. Layering is a viable option. One of 4 options as I see it: Dynamic respawns (proven method on private), temporary sharding in start zones (their original plan), layering (what we are getting) or nothing (unacceptable).

You're going to have a blast. It wont be vanilla, it will be Classic. Go in with realistic expectations and you will love it. Regardless of how layering turns out, it is temporary. As far as your concerns about PvP. DON'T BE WORRIED ABOUT BEING GRIEFED! Layering gives you an out. You cant be camped. What you will experience is an extremely watered down version of PvP with a safe space. Players who are competitive PvPers or gankers should be unhappy with layering, as someone who wants to avoid being griefed, layering gives you an out that you can use at ANY time! Instead of that level 60 who is camping at Nessingwary's and destroying leveling in STV, you will have a 60 in layer 3 or 4 who will be very lonely when everyone else moves to other layers. His impact and misery is confined to 1 layer. His impact is divided by the amount of layers that exist.

We're just talking. Its fun to talk about the game and to have fun speculating. The day Classic launches we will all have gigantic grins on our faces and play whatever the hell they release. My posts aren't meant to distract from the hype or to derail your desire to play... I'm just a guy who wants to talk about Classic and despite our differences of opinion, I appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 3:27 am
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

What you will experience is an extremely watered down version of PvP with a safe space

It's things like this that make me think your interpretation of layering is pretty bleak. You say that my reaction is 'a bit much' but what you are claiming is Classic (in this case PvP) may end up being a completely watered down version of Vanilla. I don't want a watered down version of Vanilla, do you? Does the community?

That's my point, yes vanilla was vanilla and a time machine was the only way to have it again - but the hope was always that Classic was going to be as close as possible to vanilla that was achievable. Your gloom and doom assessment of layering does not suggest that Classic will be a good representation of Vanilla, and that is why I have been trying to find the positives in the decisions to utilise layering. I was being optimistic, I was trying to find solutions to the problems created by layering, but ultimately it appears as if what they have created will not help replicate the vanilla experience. No one expected it to be 100% vanilla, I was 16 for god's sake, I have a wife and children now. But I did hope it would be exploitation/abuse free and close to the same game I enjoyed. It appears layering certainly wont help in recreating a chance to relive some of the same experiences. I have reluctantly taken your advice onboard, and I will move forward with the facts you've stated to find a way to enjoy Classic that wasn't quite as optimistic as I had hoped. This isn't a recreation of vanilla, but rather vanilla relaunched in the image of retail WoW with their own variants on sharding that destroyed the game previously.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 3:41 am
IronBrutzler
(@ironbrutzler)
Reputable Member

In every Thread the War of Layering!

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Posted : 24/05/2019 3:42 am
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

In every Thread the War of Layering!

Yes. I have admitted defeat so we can be positive again! P.s. Ret sucks and I'll take you down as a feral druid LoL

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Posted : 24/05/2019 3:43 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

What you will experience is an extremely watered down version of PvP with a safe space

It's things like this that make me think your interpretation of layering is pretty bleak. You say that my reaction is 'a bit much' but what you are claiming is Classic (in this case PvP) may end up being a completely watered down version of Vanilla. I don't want a watered down version of Vanilla, do you? Does the community?

Yes. Vanilla had approximately 3500-4500 players on full realms with no layering. No way to escape being camped or abused. Forced interaction. Sometimes that interaction was negative. Lets call this adversity. Adversity that lead to communication and teamwork to turn the tables. Interaction that wont be necessary when you can take the path of least resistance by layer jumping. Private servers had upwards of 12k players on one server! It was a bloodbath... To think that this will be watered down into layers of 3000 players and that I will be able to avoid negative interactions is disappointing. That isn't being bleak, that's being realistic. Layering will offer a less competitive environment. World PvP matters when wins and losses dictate your control of a valuable resource or area. When you can simply avoid that competition, world PvP is not as meaningful for me.
Your gloom and doom assessment of layering does not suggest that Classic will be a good representation of Vanilla, and that is why I have been trying to find the positives in the decisions to utilise layering. I was being optimistic, I was trying to find solutions to the problems created by layering, but ultimately it appears as if what they have created will not help replicate the vanilla experience. No one expected it to be 100% vanilla, I was 16 for god's sake, I have a wife and children now. But I did hope it would be exploitation/abuse free and close to the same game I enjoyed. It appears layering certainly wont help in recreating a chance to relive some of the same experiences. I have reluctantly taken your advice onboard, and I will move forward with the facts you've stated to find a way to enjoy Classic that wasn't quite as optimistic as I had hoped. This isn't a recreation of vanilla, but rather vanilla relaunched in the image of retail WoW with their own variants on sharding that destroyed the game previously.

Mmm... This is a bit dramatic, but I guess I agree with the core of what you are saying. Bear in mind layering is temporary... I feel like I started this conversation trying to highlight all of the negative impacts layering could have and now I'm trying to talk you off an edge... You're going to have fun in Classic! Layering is temporary. Its a viable solution to an issue that needed to be addressed. It wasn't my preferred solution, but there seems to be a pretty big divide within this very forum, so take my opinion for what its worth.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 3:53 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

In every Thread the War of Layering!

I mean... Its sort of related to the topic?!?! I tried to keep this one within the context of OP's question. It got sloppy though. hahaha

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Posted : 24/05/2019 3:55 am
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

Vanilla had approximately 3500-4500 players on full realms with no layering

Private servers had upwards of 12k players on one server! It was a bloodbath... To think that this will be watered down into layers of 3000 players and that I will be able to avoid negative interactions is disappointing.

Wait, are you looking for a pserver outcome, or a vanilla WoW outcome? This one confuses me - granted you have shown your desire for dynamic respawns (a key element of pservers) so I'm not entirely surprised. You literally just said "vanilla was 3.5k-4.5k" "pservers were 12k" "God imagine if there is only layers of 3k!" Does that seem odd to you? 3k layer is much closer to vanilla than 12k with dynamic respawns, isn't it?
You're going to have fun in Classic! Layering is temporary.

This has kind of been my point from the beginning, yourself and others take a lot of time to point out how doom and gloom layering is, regardless of it being temporary - it's hard to not have that hit home eventually. You are right that there has been nothing official from Blizzard on implementing restrictions/safeguards on layering to prevent abuse (and this concerns me most of all). My optimistic side still hopes that Blizzard use the stress test and beta to find ways to prevent exploitation of layering before launch. But based on my experience with Blizzard and expansions/launches, I tend to agree with you that they will ignore feedback from people like us and launch a shit-show of exploits/bugs/shit we don't want.

Ultimately I think you're on the money Stfuppercut, I think layering will have a negative impact on the game, but I just hope that it is minimised at much as possible so that we can all enjoy trying to recreate that vanilla experience. Don't get me wrong, I am still excited to play the game, I just really hope that it doesn't turn out to be quite so negatively impacted that yourself and others have predicted, that would kind of just be a kick in the guts after all of these years waiting.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:07 am
teebling
(@teebling)
Noble Member

War... war never changes. Good discussion being had here though - we haven’t had as long to digest layering perspectives as we did for sharding.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:09 am
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

War... war never changes. Good discussion being had here though - we haven’t had as long to digest layering perspectives as we did for sharding.

Good point, I think we are all a little jaded from that experience. And people still feel that today. I remember seeing sharding in the classic demo at Blizzcon, it was horrific. People in Elwynn Forest get invited to a group, everyone around them disappears, mobs surround them and they are suddenly having to fight for their life.

I hope they find a way for layering to work better than sharding, I don't like sharding. I don't mind dynamic respawns, but I also don't think it is representative of vanilla WoW.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:11 am
IronBrutzler
(@ironbrutzler)
Reputable Member

P.s. Ret sucks and I'll take you down as a feral druid

I am Up for a Duel 😉

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:28 am
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

I am Up for a Duel 😉
Holy shit you called my bluff, you know Druid vs Paladin is like the immovable object meets.... the immovable object! That duel could go for years.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:30 am
IronBrutzler
(@ironbrutzler)
Reputable Member

Holy shit you called my bluff, you know Druid vs Paladin is like the immovable object meets.... the immovable object! That duel could go for years.

I have the first 4 Weeks off work on Release so i have enough time 😉

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:33 am
Stfuppercut
(@stfuppercut)
Noble Member

Wait, are you looking for a pserver outcome, or a vanilla WoW outcome? This one confuses me - granted you have shown your desire for dynamic respawns (a key element of pservers) so I'm not entirely surprised. You literally just said "vanilla was 3.5k-4.5k" "pservers were 12k" "God imagine if there is only layers of 3k!" Does that seem odd to you? 3k layer is much closer to vanilla than 12k with dynamic respawns, isn't it?

Again. Vanilla was vanilla. Private was private. And Classic will be Classic. They are all separate. That being said, Classic is shaping up to be the least competitive version of world PvP that we have seen. Private is relevant because private servers sparked the development of Classic and private servers hosted a massive playerbase, so they offer a great talking point for dynamic respawns. If you had read my previous posts, my actual desired outcome was temporary sharding confined to start zones (as Blizzard originally planned). I have seen dynamic respawns and I personally believe that sharding within start zones would have the smallest impact on Classic. Having played on private, it was a bloodbath. I dont use that term lightly, and while I will cherish those memories fondly, I am prepared to move onto Classic.
This has kind of been my point from the beginning, yourself and others take a lot of time to point out how doom and gloom layering is, regardless of it being temporary - it's hard to not have that hit home eventually. You are right that there has been nothing official from Blizzard on implementing restrictions/safeguards on layering to prevent abuse (and this concerns me most of all). My optimistic side still hopes that Blizzard use the stress test and beta to find ways to prevent exploitation of layering before launch. But based on my experience with Blizzard and expansions/launches, I tend to agree with you that they will ignore feedback from people like us and launch a shit-show of exploits/bugs/shit we don't want.

No Selexin, I have been outlining the negatives that will likely present themselves with layering. You are speaking in terms of absolutes... Actual doom and gloom scenarios... "I tend to agree with you that they will ignore feedback from people like us and launch a shit-show of exploits/bugs/shit we don't want." This is not my line of thinking, its yours.

For example...

I am happy to concede that layer hopping will be instant, easy, abusable and rampantly destroying the vanilla feel (which is a shame).

That is a very bleak outlook and is not one that I support. I can be critical of a specific aspect of the launch without losing faith in the entire project. I am concerned about what implications layering will have and I think that it was a poor option, but I dont think that layering will ruin vanilla forever. The launch wont be my cup of tea and then we will move onto phase 2.
Ultimately I think you're on the money @Stfuppercut, I think layering will have a negative impact on the game, but I just hope that it is minimised at much as possible so that we can all enjoy trying to recreate that vanilla experience. Don't get me wrong, I am still excited to play the game, I just really hope that it doesn't turn out to be quite so negatively impacted that yourself and others have predicted, that would kind of just be a kick in the guts after all of these years waiting.

I am less interested with recreating the vanilla experience, and more interested in experiencing Classic for what it will be. I think that if you go into Classic with minimized expectations you will have a good time.

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:34 am
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

I have the first 4 Weeks off work on Release so i have enough time 😉

I can't believe you pulled that off, you lucky bastard hahaha. I'm very jealous

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Posted : 24/05/2019 4:35 am
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