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Faendor
(@faendor)
Reputable Member

@Quaria HW wasn't saying it is bis for feral dps but rather feral druid but he should ve specified that the crowd pummeler is bis just for tanking. I don't see why would attack speed boost alone be better then attack power increase from the other weapons. Wolfshead helm however is bis for feral dps.

Crowd pummeler is good for the increase of maul hits per sec for higher threat generation it is not that impactful on dps feral.

Actually he said for ”cat” but it doesn’t matter. Even if its bis for bear, not cat, my point still stands.

Apparently I was wrong, it just seemed unlikely that the pummeler would ve that good, sadly it seems to be true.

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Posted : 02/04/2019 2:44 pm
Selexin
(@selexin)
Prominent Member

MCP is insanely powerful, but something I would never use. I don't like the idea of it, and wouldn't be willing to farm gnomer over and over and over. I don't like that you need this to min/max feral DPS, it's clunky. Heck, I don't even like powershifting, but I think if I wanted to feral dps regularly, I would have to do this. Please note that powershifting wasn't feasible on my ping in vanilla 😉

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Posted : 02/04/2019 5:09 pm
Gensei
(@gensei)
Reputable Member

In the most recent episode of Countdown To Classic they talk about druids with one of the vanilla designers, and they talk about the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=9449/manual-crowd-pummeler and the https://classic.wowhead.com/item=8345/wolfshead-helm specifically. It's an interesting listen, I recommend checking it out.

The druid part starts at around 40 mins, and the part about items start at arond 51 mins:
https://countdowntoclassic.com/2019/03/27/episode-97-mute-speaks-kevin-jordan-on-druids-loot-trading-rp-pvp-av/

To the question: I agree that it is silly for a low level blue item to be stronger than legendaries etc, and I find it hard to believe it being anything else but an unintended flaw. However - I don't think they should, nor do I want it to be fixed. It's a reason why it wasn't discovered during vanilla (or at least not common knowledge), it's such a weird and specific case that doesn't make much of an impact.

All it really does is allow an underrepresented, underperforming class to compete with the rest. It has a really high maintenance requirement so it's only going to be used by the top few % of druid players that have the time for it.

Also, personally I adore this type of emergent gameplay. And find it fitting in neatly with all of vanilla's quirky consumables and special items.

Well there's a couple issues here. #1: it doesn't really help druids catch all the way up. Even with Crowd Pummeler and the helm, it's not enough.

Second, the wow dev in this internview, that I also cite in my own earlier reply, also said that the interaction and necessity of these items would have been a problem for the original devs had they emerged at the time, and if there was a vanilla patch 1.13, they would have nerfed these items while giving compensatory buffs to cat druid dps.

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Posted : 02/04/2019 7:15 pm
Toastea
(@toastea)
Trusted Member

MCP is insanely powerful, but something I would never use. I don't like the idea of it, and wouldn't be willing to farm gnomer over and over and over. I don't like that you need this to min/max feral DPS, it's clunky. Heck, I don't even like powershifting, but I think if I wanted to feral dps regularly, I would have to do this. Please note that powershifting wasn't feasible on my ping in vanilla 😉

Pretty much everything you said! I think its better off just going Bear Off Tank. Even with Wolfshead and the Pummeler you are only just entering the realm of respectable after way too much effort.

The fact is cats were just shit back then and Blizzard freely admitted it, going as far to say as balance was the better option if you wanted to DPS. The only thing they tried to do to fix it was make ferocious bite better, it received two buffs in vanilla and still just wasnt good enough really. The only time I have seen a cat dominating was when the druid had outgeared the dungeon and was allowed a debuff slot, and lets face it this is not going to be the common occurrence and there is no reason to do it out side of helping your guild or to make a video to say "hey look, a cat doing good DPS".

The sad reality is that cat were just put on the "to do list" and were never really helped until TBC. Even with modern day cheese tactics that greatly improved it

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Posted : 02/04/2019 11:24 pm
kvmphvre
(@kvmphvre)
Eminent Member

Well there's a couple issues here. #1: it doesn't really help druids catch all the way up. Even with Crowd Pummeler and the helm, it's not enough.

Second, the wow dev in this internview, that I also cite in my own earlier reply, also said that the interaction and necessity of these items would have been a problem for the original devs had they emerged at the time, and if there was a vanilla patch 1.13, they would have nerfed these items while giving compensatory buffs to cat druid dps.

Sorry I don't fully understand what you mean. There's a couple issues here in regards of what?

I agree that this should have been fixed way back then, for all the reasons stated. And I would have loved for druid to be in a better spot and not have to work harder than everyone else and use unintended mechanics to be competitive - but I don't think that it should be adressed at this point in time. At the very least, it's a flavorful interaction between mechanics.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 12:03 am
Quaria
(@quaria)
Trusted Member

I agree that this should have been fixed way back then, for all the reasons stated [...] but I don't think that it should be adressed at this point in time. At the very least, it's a flavorful interaction between mechanics.

I guess this is what splits people up. Myself I think things could be fixed in a hypothetical 1.13, while some thinks it should be 1.12 frozen in time forever.

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Topic starter Posted : 03/04/2019 12:25 am
Nymis
(@nymis)
Reputable Member

According to a video I saw Manual Crowd Pummeler is better for feral druids than Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian. This is something which I sincerely think that they should fix. Stuff like this, which was discovered on private servers and theorycrafted to death, is not vanilla or nochanges for me. If this was discovered during vanilla I'm pretty sure it would get fixed by Blizzard.

There is something wrong if a lv29 item is better than a Legendary, don't you think?

The same can be said about Wolfshead Helm I suppose. Perhaps other stuff aswell, suggestions?

Stuff should be changed according to someone's subjective opinion on a random theorycrafted metric?

Because making that sort of comparison is simply ludicrous. That blue item has 3 charges to it, and you're only judging those two items on a single metric (damage output) which is also silly because you're completely disregarding:

* that it's better for Balance/Resto
* the mana regen aura it provides
* the Stamina it gives (which makes it a better PvP item)
* the portal to Karazhan

That's like saying Thunderfury sucks ass in PvP compared to a random blue item with +10 Stamina for Warlocks because it gives less Stamina so Blizzard should change it. Like completely disregarding that the sword has other uses as well, no no - we're just theorycrafting what is and isn't viable for survivability and we've found that it's true that a blue item is better than a legendary item. LoL
Stuff like this, which was discovered on private servers and theorycrafted to death, is not vanilla or nochanges for me.

If I had 1 copper for every forum post that was like "I love Vanilla and I'm not like those other guys who're crying for changes, but I think Blizzard should fix..." threads, I'd have an epic mount by now. LoL

Balance patches belong to retail WoW. Classic WoW is about recreating patch 1.12. "Fixing" things means changing them. Vanilla was not very well balanced and it doesn't need to be.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 12:43 am
Quaria
(@quaria)
Trusted Member

Stuff should be changed according to someone's subjective opinion on a random theorycrafted metric?
[...]
If I had 1 copper for every forum post that was like "I love Vanilla and I'm not like those other guys who're crying for changes, but I think Blizzard should fix..." threads, I'd have an epic mount by now. LoL

Well, I'm not demanding any change based solely on my opinion, I'm merely contributing to a forum where people can discuss, as is the intention of a forum.

I get that it could be a slippery slope from fixing some stuff to ending up in BfA but they are fixing wall jumping right? And you won't end up in BfA just because of Classic has no wall jumping.

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Topic starter Posted : 03/04/2019 2:09 am
Nymis
(@nymis)
Reputable Member

Even wall jumping is going to have extreme consequences in AV if the jump skip is no longer going to be available for the Horde. Many have opposed it and many still do.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 2:45 am
Pluuf
(@pluuf)
Trusted Member

As long as it doesn't force other people out of the meta it is balanced and therefore can exist. Quirky items (Skull of Impending doom, MCP and others) are part of what makes this game so rich and feel alive. The MCP doesn't do much else than elevate druids into competitive ranges in relation to the already existing forces (I'm not convinced that it surpasses them, does anybody know something I don't?) therefore it can remain unchecked imo.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 3:12 am
Quaria
(@quaria)
Trusted Member

Even wall jumping is going to have extreme consequences in AV if the jump skip is no longer going to be available for the Horde. Many have opposed it and many still do.

AFAIK there's a difference between wall jumping and pixel jumping (or what it's called) and that's why the Horde back door jump will still be there in Classic, but wall jumping will not.

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Topic starter Posted : 03/04/2019 3:51 am
Wrekk
(@wrekk)
Eminent Member

Stuff like the MCP is one of the main reasons I like vanilla; There is no streamlined, hard-coded meta but rather one that the community developed over many years. The MCP allows the previously frowned upon druid to be a rather competetive tank. Not that I wouldn't want balanced classes like in BC, but Classic is just the way it is and gameplay changes would not fit the Classic philosophy.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 8:19 am
Gensei
(@gensei)
Reputable Member

As long as it doesn't force other people out of the meta it is balanced and therefore can exist. Quirky items (Skull of Impending doom, MCP and others) are part of what makes this game so rich and feel alive. The MCP doesn't do much else than elevate druids into competitive ranges in relation to the already existing forces (I'm not convinced that it surpasses them, does anybody know something I don't?) therefore it can remain unchecked imo.

Yeah this was my point earlier. Even with these two gimmick items, cat druids still can't keep up. They're still kinda bad.

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Posted : 03/04/2019 8:35 am
Hoofoot
(@hoofoot)
Active Member

The second we start to substitute our modern judgement to solve problems from 12 years ago we are deviating from our goal of a historical recreation of the game as it was, and making something different, and that is something we want to avoid .
― Ion Hazzikostas, Blizzcon 2018

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Posted : 03/04/2019 11:23 am
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